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Cosmic Discoveries: Primordial Black Holes, Murchison Breakthroughs, and the New Space Race
In this captivating episode of Space Nuts, hosts Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson dive into the latest astronomical revelations. From the potential discovery of primordial black holes to exciting developments at the Murchison Wide Field Array and the evolving landscape of the space race, this episode is packed with insights and discussions that will spark your curiosity about the universe.
Episode Highlights:
- Primordial Black Holes: The hosts discuss a groundbreaking study suggesting the existence of primordial black holes formed shortly after the Big Bang. Andrew and Fred Watson explore the implications of this discovery, including the characteristics of these black holes and their potential role in the early universe.
- Murchison Wide Field Array Update: Exciting news from Western Australia as the Murchison Wide Field Array completes its phase three upgrade. Fred Watson explains how this enhancement doubles the number of antennas and increases the array's sensitivity, allowing astronomers to probe the epoch of reionization and potentially detect fast radio bursts.
- China's Ascendancy in the Space Race: As the US and China compete for lunar supremacy, Andrew and Fred Watson evaluate the implications of recent statements from former NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine regarding the challenges facing the Artemis programme. The discussion delves into the differences in objectives between US and Chinese lunar missions and the potential consequences of a changing space landscape.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:00 Professor Fred Watson: Hi there.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks for joining us again for Space Nuts.
00:00:03 --> 00:00:05 My name is Andrew Dunkley, where we, uh, are,
00:00:05 --> 00:00:07 uh, talking astronomy and space science every
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 week with Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 Coming up on this episode, have we discovered
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 a primordial black hole? I believe this has
00:00:14 --> 00:00:16 been up for discussion before, but we might
00:00:16 --> 00:00:19 have some new information for you. Good news
00:00:19 --> 00:00:22 from the Murchison Wide Field Array
00:00:23 --> 00:00:26 and, uh, Mark two of the space race
00:00:26 --> 00:00:28 could see China in the lead. We'll tell you
00:00:28 --> 00:00:31 all about that on this episode of space
00:00:31 --> 00:00:32 nuts. 15 seconds.
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 Voice Over Guy: Guidance is internal. 10,
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 9. Ignition sequence start.
00:00:38 --> 00:00:41 Space nuts. 5, 4, 3, 2. 1, 2,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:44 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 Space nuts. Astronauts report it feels
00:00:47 --> 00:00:47 good.
00:00:48 --> 00:00:51 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. And this episode, proudly supported by
00:00:51 --> 00:00:53 SpaceX. Uh, it's like trying to land an
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 unmanned rocket back on a floating
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 pad is how it feels at the moment.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 Ah, Very unstable Internet connection. And,
00:01:03 --> 00:01:05 um, yes, this is take two. Believe we did the
00:01:05 --> 00:01:07 whole show and had to start again, didn't we,
00:01:07 --> 00:01:08 Fred Watson?
00:01:08 --> 00:01:09 Professor Fred Watson: Something like that, yeah.
00:01:10 --> 00:01:13 Andrew Dunkley: I think we got 10 seconds in. T
00:01:13 --> 00:01:15 minus 10 and the whole thing went.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:17 How are you, Fred Watson?
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 Professor Fred Watson: I'm very well, thank you. Uh, it's great to
00:01:20 --> 00:01:21 see you, Andrew. Uh, good to see you looking
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 a bit less jazz, like we were together.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:25 Yeah.
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 Andrew Dunkley: And I'm wearing my DART T shirt.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:28 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 Andrew Dunkley: Um, which Mari Claire sent me from the Dart
00:01:31 --> 00:01:33 mission when she witnessed the impact moment.
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 Ah, at NASA. Um, yep.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:38 And Jordy. Hello, Jordy.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:40 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, Jordy's still there. Uh, um, he's, um.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:44 He's kind of, um. Well, he howls at things
00:01:44 --> 00:01:46 when it. When he. When he gets a surprise, he
00:01:46 --> 00:01:49 starts howling. Yeah. And he's surprised at
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 the moment because, um, I've got washing
00:01:51 --> 00:01:52 outside on the line and every time the wind
00:01:52 --> 00:01:55 blows, he thinks it's a threat, so he
00:01:55 --> 00:01:58 howls. And, uh, it's quite a windy day, so
00:01:58 --> 00:01:58 we're probably.
00:01:58 --> 00:02:00 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it is here too.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:00 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Yeah.
00:02:01 --> 00:02:04 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Uh, well, um, dogs and
00:02:04 --> 00:02:06 cats living together. That's the world we're
00:02:06 --> 00:02:09 in at the moment. Um, we'll get
00:02:09 --> 00:02:10 straight to it, Fred Watson.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 Uh, now, there's been a lot of, uh, movement
00:02:13 --> 00:02:16 in the news about the, uh, potential
00:02:16 --> 00:02:18 discovery of a primordial. Primordial black
00:02:18 --> 00:02:21 hole that may have formed not long after
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 the. The Big Bang itself, which is
00:02:24 --> 00:02:27 something that, uh, was predicted by
00:02:27 --> 00:02:30 Stephen Hawking. And look,
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 they have not exactly confirmed it. In
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 fact, uh, that might be very difficult. But,
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 um, if it's real, this is a very exciting
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 discovery indeed. But there's. There's a bit
00:02:41 --> 00:02:42 more going on than that. I know you've
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 probably talked to Heidi about this, um, but
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 this one came up in, in Facebook discussions
00:02:48 --> 00:02:51 and so uh, we thought we'd bring it up on the
00:02:51 --> 00:02:51 show.
00:02:53 --> 00:02:55 Professor Fred Watson: Definitely Andrew. Uh, because there's a new
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57 paper as well which is um,
00:02:58 --> 00:03:01 actually Science Alert describes it as
00:03:01 --> 00:03:04 a dazzling new paper which is pretty good
00:03:04 --> 00:03:06 coming from the University of Cambridge. Uh,
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 I used to know all the people in Cambridge
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 who are working on this stuff but that's a
00:03:10 --> 00:03:11 long time ago and I don't know them anymore.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 I don't know Ignace Jordz
00:03:14 --> 00:03:17 Balis I think is their
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 name. Uh, and that is a lead
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 author of this paper. Uh, what we talked
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26 about in your absence uh Andrew
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 while uh, Heidi was in the hot seat was uh,
00:03:29 --> 00:03:32 these little red dots, which is
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 becoming the official name for
00:03:35 --> 00:03:37 uh, targets that the
00:03:37 --> 00:03:40 James Webb Telescope has identified
00:03:41 --> 00:03:43 as uh, little red dots because that's what
00:03:43 --> 00:03:46 they look like. But
00:03:47 --> 00:03:50 you can measure their redshift and it turns
00:03:50 --> 00:03:53 out the reason they're red is
00:03:53 --> 00:03:55 that their light has been stretched so much
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 because they are uh. Actually
00:03:58 --> 00:03:59 we're seeing them at a look back time of
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 something like 13.2 billion
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 years. Remember the universe we think is
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 30.8 billion years old. So we're seeing
00:04:07 --> 00:04:10 these 600 million years after the Big Bang.
00:04:10 --> 00:04:12 So no wonder they look like little red dots.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14 They're little because they're so far away
00:04:14 --> 00:04:16 and they're red because they're highly
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 redshifted. And the dots because basically
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 you can't see any structure. Uh, and that's
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 the interesting part of this because
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 um, they are assumed to be galaxies. Uh
00:04:26 --> 00:04:28 and uh, in fact you know the, all the
00:04:28 --> 00:04:31 evidence is that they are indeed galaxies but
00:04:31 --> 00:04:33 they're galaxies with
00:04:34 --> 00:04:36 not um, many stars, um, stars,
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 um, you know, at a much lower density
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 than we find in stars today.
00:04:43 --> 00:04:45 And so the um,
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 most notable feature of them
00:04:49 --> 00:04:51 is a central black hole.
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 Uh, and how do we know that there's a black
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 hole there? Because uh, you can sense
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 the rotation. If I remember rightly, you're
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 seeing velocities of well over a thousand
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 kilometres per second of material,
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 uh, which is going around in orbit around
00:05:06 --> 00:05:08 something and that something has to be a
00:05:08 --> 00:05:10 black hole because there's nothing else could
00:05:10 --> 00:05:13 fit into the uh, squeeze into the small
00:05:13 --> 00:05:16 space that it's occupying. So what
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 they've basically discovered and uh, they're
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 talking, this is Cambridge University group
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 is talking specifically about one
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 um, particular object. It's called QSO.1 uh,
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 it's a, odd name because QSO
00:05:29 --> 00:05:31 is um, a standard
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 contraction of quasi stellar Ah Object
00:05:35 --> 00:05:37 qso quasi stellar object. Something that
00:05:37 --> 00:05:40 looks like a star but isn't. I suppose it is.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 It does look like a star, but isn't. But we
00:05:42 --> 00:05:45 now identify QSOs with quasars.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:48 And this may be a quasar,
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 but we're not seeing the outbursts of X
00:05:50 --> 00:05:52 radiation that we normally get from quasars.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:55 So what uh, is being suggested
00:05:55 --> 00:05:58 is that what we have here is
00:05:59 --> 00:06:02 a uh, black hole. Yes. Uh, apparently
00:06:02 --> 00:06:05 50 million solar masses, something like that,
00:06:06 --> 00:06:08 which is big compared with our poor uh,
00:06:09 --> 00:06:12 little 4.1 million solar mass black
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 hole at Sagittarius, a star in the centre of
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 our galaxy. Uh, so, so it is a supermassive
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 black hole. I mean it's not the, you know,
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 the, the behemoths that have billions um,
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 of, of solar masses. It's not that big.
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 Uh, but it's, it is big. And the fact
00:06:28 --> 00:06:30 that it's 50 million solar masses and we're
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 seeing it as the universe as it
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 was 600 million years after the Big Bang
00:06:36 --> 00:06:38 begs the question, how did it get so big?
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 Yeah. And so uh, basically
00:06:42 --> 00:06:44 the uh, the bottom line is
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 that uh, it's, it could
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 be that we are seeing, as you said,
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 primordial black holes, which indeed were,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 were um, predicted by Stephen Hawking, uh,
00:06:56 --> 00:06:59 among others. Uh, these things should
00:06:59 --> 00:07:00 develop after the Big Bang.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:03 Um, and
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 there are subtleties here. Um, and I might
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 quote one uh, of the
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 authors. Uh, it's actually this is a quote
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 from the paper itself. Um, uh,
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 and we're talking now about something that's
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 got high mass but not many
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 stars. The only scenarios that can account
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 for such a system are those invoking
00:07:27 --> 00:07:30 heavy seeds. And that's in, in uh,
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 inverted commas such as direct
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 collapse black holes, which are called
00:07:35 --> 00:07:37 dcbhs. Direct
00:07:37 --> 00:07:40 collapse black holes resulting from the
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 direct collapse of massive pristine cloud. So
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 that, what's that set that is saying is
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 you've got a cloud of gas, it collapses. It
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 doesn't form stars, it just collapses
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 straight into a black hole. And you and I
00:07:52 --> 00:07:53 have talked about that some years ago. The
00:07:53 --> 00:07:56 idea of these direct collapse black holes.
00:07:57 --> 00:07:59 So that's one possibility for what this is.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:02 Or primordial black holes
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 formed in the first second after the Big
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 Bang. Um, now
00:08:08 --> 00:08:10 what they say is, uh, in fact this is the
00:08:10 --> 00:08:12 article reading it from Science Alert. It's a
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 very nicely written article. I should uh,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:17 name the author. It is Michelle Starr. What a
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 name for somebody who writes about astronomy.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:23 Michelle. Um, Starr says both scenarios would
00:08:23 --> 00:08:26 need further investigation. On the one hand,
00:08:26 --> 00:08:28 direct collapse black holes would be
00:08:28 --> 00:08:30 accompanied by ultraviolet light not seen in
00:08:30 --> 00:08:32 QSO1. On the other hand,
00:08:32 --> 00:08:35 PBHs primordial black holes are
00:08:35 --> 00:08:38 considerably smaller than 50 million solar
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 masses. It is possible, however, that
00:08:41 --> 00:08:44 the object is the product of rapid growth
00:08:44 --> 00:08:47 both through accretion that's just gathering
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50 stuff up and collisional processes that's
00:08:50 --> 00:08:51 black holes colliding, making
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 QSO1 potentially the first
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 direct evidence for the existence of
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 primordial black holes. And so,
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 you know, uh, it's now, that's where
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 the situation lies now that we
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 don't have, um, a
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 definite answer. Uh, and once
00:09:11 --> 00:09:13 again Michel says the paper remains to be
00:09:13 --> 00:09:16 peer reviewed and it is quite an
00:09:16 --> 00:09:18 extraordinary claim. So we'll be waiting to
00:09:18 --> 00:09:20 see how this line of inquiry develops. So
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 will Jordy. Whatever the outcome though,
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 we're sure that little red dots are going to
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 tell us something really fascinating about
00:09:26 --> 00:09:29 the birth of the universe. So it's an ongoing
00:09:29 --> 00:09:31 story, Andrew, and uh, it's an evolution of
00:09:31 --> 00:09:33 what we talked about with Heidi. But I think
00:09:33 --> 00:09:35 you and I will be talking about this again
00:09:35 --> 00:09:36 quite soon probably.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:39 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I don't doubt it. And it'll spawn a lot
00:09:39 --> 00:09:42 of questions too, I'm sure. When you think
00:09:42 --> 00:09:44 about it though, if it's been around for
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 13.2 billion years, it's had plenty of
00:09:47 --> 00:09:49 time to get
00:09:49 --> 00:09:52 its stuff together, you know, to grow and
00:09:52 --> 00:09:55 to um, develop,
00:09:55 --> 00:09:58 I suppose. Um, you know, 50, what was
00:09:58 --> 00:09:59 it, 50 million.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 Professor Fred Watson: 50 million solar masses. But remember, we're
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 seeing that, we're seeing that
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 13.2 billion years ago.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 So what's it like? Who knows what it would
00:10:09 --> 00:10:11 look like now? That's right, yeah, yeah.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:14 Andrew Dunkley: Ah, fascinating story. Yes, plenty, uh, of
00:10:14 --> 00:10:16 places where you can, um, read up on that,
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 phys.org or
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 sciencealert.com and
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 many others, uh, carrying this story because
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 if it turns out to be what we think it is, it
00:10:25 --> 00:10:27 is, uh, certainly quite a discovery.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:30 This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here with
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 Speaker C: Three, two, one.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 Andrew Dunkley: Space Nuts. Now Fred Watson, uh, a little
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 closer to home. Western Australia to be
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 exact. Good news coming out of the merchants.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:45 Murchison, uh, Wide Field
00:10:46 --> 00:10:46 Array.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yes, that's right. Um, this is a story I
00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 like, um, a lot because I've always been a
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 big fan of the Murchison Wide Field Array.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:56 It's a Curtin University operated
00:10:57 --> 00:10:59 set of antennas, um, at,
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 uh, the observatory is called in Yarimana
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 Garibundara, the CSIRO Radio
00:11:05 --> 00:11:07 Murchison Radio Astronomy Observatory. That's
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 its full name. Uh, in
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 Yarimana Il Ghari Bundara is Wajiri
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 language, uh, and it means sharing sky and
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 stars. And the Wadji people ah, are playing a
00:11:18 --> 00:11:20 big role actually in the development of the
00:11:20 --> 00:11:22 Square Kilometre Array, uh, low
00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 frequency, uh, arm, um, if you put it that
00:11:25 --> 00:11:28 way, which is also being built there. Uh, and
00:11:28 --> 00:11:30 in many ways the Murchison Widefield Array,
00:11:30 --> 00:11:32 the one we're talking about now, was the
00:11:32 --> 00:11:34 precursor to that um, Square
00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 Kilometre Array telescope. Because unlike the
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 traditional steerable dishes, and in fact one
00:11:39 --> 00:11:42 of the pathfinders for the Square Kilometre
00:11:42 --> 00:11:45 Array was steerable dishes here in
00:11:45 --> 00:11:47 Australia, again at Murchison, um,
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 um, unlike those steerable dishes, uh, these
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 antennas uh, look like something
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 different. So in the case of the Square
00:11:56 --> 00:11:57 Kilometre Array, and we've discussed this
00:11:57 --> 00:12:00 many times, it's paddocks full of um,
00:12:00 --> 00:12:03 Christmas trees, metal Christmas trees, uh,
00:12:03 --> 00:12:05 131 of them. Uh, that's
00:12:05 --> 00:12:08 still work in progress. We talked recently
00:12:08 --> 00:12:10 about the images received from the first
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 thousand of those antennas. Uh, but the
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 Merchant Wide Field Array uh, is a
00:12:16 --> 00:12:19 different style of thing but it's the same
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 kind of idea except their antennas look
00:12:21 --> 00:12:24 different. They are not
00:12:24 --> 00:12:26 2 metre tall Christmas trees, they're about
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 half a metre tall and about three quarters of
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 a metre wide reed yards
00:12:32 --> 00:12:34 for that if you're not in metre land.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:38 Um, um, but they look like. Well the first
00:12:38 --> 00:12:39 time I've saw them and I have visited this
00:12:39 --> 00:12:41 site, first time I saw them I thought they
00:12:41 --> 00:12:43 just look like a, a field full of coat
00:12:43 --> 00:12:46 hangers that somebody's thrown away. They've
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 just sort of assembled themselves in a
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51 peculiar way. Uh.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 Andrew Dunkley: Oh yeah, yeah. I'm looking at a photo now
00:12:53 --> 00:12:53 and.
00:12:53 --> 00:12:55 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, do you see what I mean?
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58 Andrew Dunkley: My first impression was um,
00:12:58 --> 00:12:59 metallic spiders.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. They've got that about
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 them as well. Yeah. Um, the, the reason,
00:13:05 --> 00:13:07 um, I, uh, I was, I
00:13:07 --> 00:13:10 remember being really impressed. Um, so
00:13:10 --> 00:13:12 they're like. So each one of these, as I said
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 it's half a metre wide, it's made of metal,
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 it's shiny, uh, it's um, it's got
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 basically four legs. So it's a four legged
00:13:20 --> 00:13:22 spider. Uh, but it's got these structures
00:13:22 --> 00:13:24 that are look just like bits of bent coat
00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 hanger. It sort of spells its own name
00:13:27 --> 00:13:30 because you can make uh, each one of those
00:13:30 --> 00:13:32 antennas give you an M M, a W
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 and if you look sideways an A, which is the
00:13:35 --> 00:13:38 Murchison Widefield Array. I thought that was
00:13:38 --> 00:13:40 very clever. I think that was completely
00:13:40 --> 00:13:42 accidental because when I talked to the
00:13:42 --> 00:13:43 Murchison people they never thought of that.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 They thought it was crazy actually.
00:13:47 --> 00:13:50 Um, so uh, it is uh, in the
00:13:50 --> 00:13:52 news because the
00:13:53 --> 00:13:55 uh, um, uh,
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 phase three of the development
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 has now been completed. And phase
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 three was uh, doubling the number
00:14:04 --> 00:14:06 of antennas. It was originally 4,
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 4, uh, uh,
00:14:10 --> 00:14:13 within a 20 square kilometre area,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:16 quite a large area, uh, but it's gone up
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 now to a uh, total of
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 uh, 8, uh, I can't remember the exact
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 number. It's just over 8.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:27 Andrew Dunkley: 8.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:29 Professor Fred Watson: I should have done it because it's double.
00:14:29 --> 00:14:32 4 could have probably done that in
00:14:32 --> 00:14:34 my head but never mind, I couldn't. It's been
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 a long day. It's out to 30 square
00:14:37 --> 00:14:40 kilometres and that actually. So
00:14:40 --> 00:14:43 doubling the, the, you know, doubling the
00:14:43 --> 00:14:44 number of antennas basically doubles the
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 sensitivity, at least at some level. Uh,
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 expanding its footprint from 20 to 30 square
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 kilometres actually increases what
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 we call the baseline of the array. And that's
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 sort of the equivalent to the, the width of a
00:14:58 --> 00:15:00 mirror. If you were thinking of a visible
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 light or optical telescope, the diameter of
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 the mirror, uh, is what tells you how much
00:15:05 --> 00:15:07 detail you can see. And
00:15:08 --> 00:15:10 in a way what they've done is they've
00:15:10 --> 00:15:12 expanded that footprint out to 30 square
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15 kilometres and so it will let you
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 see more detail. Higher uh, resolution
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 is the technical term. Basically it lets you
00:15:21 --> 00:15:22 see finer detail in whatever you're looking
00:15:22 --> 00:15:25 at. And so they've done all
00:15:25 --> 00:15:28 that. It's not just the coat hangers that you
00:15:28 --> 00:15:31 have to expand all the uh,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 software, the hardware, uh, things called the
00:15:35 --> 00:15:37 correlators which are the basically
00:15:37 --> 00:15:40 supercomputers that combine the image,
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 sorry the signal from each coat hanger
00:15:43 --> 00:15:46 to turn it into um, a coherent
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 image. Uh, that's all new
00:15:49 --> 00:15:50 as well. And so um,
00:15:52 --> 00:15:54 it's a really significant increase
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 in the capabilities of the MWA
00:15:58 --> 00:16:00 and what they're. Sorry, go ahead.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 Andrew Dunkley: Now you're probably about to answer the
00:16:03 --> 00:16:05 question I was about to ask because uh,
00:16:06 --> 00:16:09 um, I've, it said,
00:16:09 --> 00:16:11 um, one of the primary focus areas of this
00:16:11 --> 00:16:14 effort was the epoch of reionization. What
00:16:14 --> 00:16:15 does that mean?
00:16:15 --> 00:16:18 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so that's the time, um, effectively
00:16:19 --> 00:16:20 uh, not long after the Big Bang, when the
00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 universe became transparent. Uh,
00:16:23 --> 00:16:25 and um, so
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 you know, one of the reasons why we build
00:16:28 --> 00:16:31 these huge radio telescope arrays is to
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 probe an era, um,
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 after the Big Bang, but before the first
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 stars and galaxies lit up,
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 where um, basically the universe was just
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 full of cold hydrogen. And uh, cold
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 hydrogen curiously does emit radio waves.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 It emits them at a frequency of
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 uh, 14, 20
00:16:53 --> 00:16:55 megahertz if I remember rightly. We used to
00:16:55 --> 00:16:58 call it the 21 centimetre line because that's
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 its wavelength. But I think these days we
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 talk in frequencies and I think it's 14, 20
00:17:02 --> 00:17:04 megahertz. I'm not a radio astronomer, so I
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 have to try and remember these numbers. Um,
00:17:07 --> 00:17:09 they don't come intuitively, although 21
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 centimetres does, because I think a lot of
00:17:11 --> 00:17:13 astronomers know about that stuff. Anyway,
00:17:13 --> 00:17:16 that's the, uh, wavelength or the frequency
00:17:16 --> 00:17:19 that cold hydrogen emits. Um, and that's very
00:17:19 --> 00:17:21 convenient because it means that you can find
00:17:21 --> 00:17:24 cold hydrogen in the universe and your radio
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 waves pass through the dust of the universe
00:17:26 --> 00:17:28 as if it was, it wasn't there. That's why
00:17:28 --> 00:17:30 with visible light telescopes we can't see
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32 the spiral arms of our galaxy. But you can,
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 uh, with the radio telescope because you can
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 see, you could trace out where the cold
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 hydrogen is. Cold hydrogen hangs around on
00:17:40 --> 00:17:42 spiral arms of galaxies. But it was also
00:17:42 --> 00:17:44 there in the early universe. The cold
00:17:44 --> 00:17:46 hydrogen was the raw material of the first
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 stars and galaxies. Um, so that epoch
00:17:49 --> 00:17:52 of Rhiannon's, ah, reionization
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 corresponds to a time when the first stars
00:17:55 --> 00:17:58 and galaxies switched on and the radiation
00:17:58 --> 00:18:00 that they spread out into the universe
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 basically made the universe transparent.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 That's the bottom line. So, um,
00:18:06 --> 00:18:08 that can be detected, the signal of that can
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 be detected by radio telescopes and the
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 mwa. I think, if I remember rightly
00:18:14 --> 00:18:16 talking to my radio astronomy colleagues, I
00:18:16 --> 00:18:18 think it was built specifically for that, to
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 look for the epoch of reionization, the
00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 time when the universe started to transmit
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 light. So, fantastic stuff.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 Um, it's a five and a
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 half million Australian dollar upgrade. Uh,
00:18:32 --> 00:18:35 but I think that we like money well spent.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:35 Yeah.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:36 Andrew Dunkley: 10 bucks US.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:37 Professor Fred Watson: So,
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 um, soon
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 to be a million bucks US.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:47 Andrew Dunkley: Oh boy. Um, is that all it's
00:18:47 --> 00:18:49 going to do? I mean, no. Um, Is it a case
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 if you had one job?
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 Professor Fred Watson: No, that's right. And you
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 didn't do it? Um, I mean, people have
00:18:57 --> 00:18:59 been telling me that all my life.
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04 Anyway, um, uh, no, look, there's,
00:19:04 --> 00:19:07 there's a lot of other things. Um, now one of
00:19:07 --> 00:19:09 the things that it should be able to detect
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 is fast radio bursts. Um,
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 but my recollection from
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 talking to MWA scientists
00:19:20 --> 00:19:22 was that the, the original version,
00:19:22 --> 00:19:25 the 4096 antenna version,
00:19:25 --> 00:19:28 never did detect a fast radio
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 burst. And that's interesting because,
00:19:31 --> 00:19:34 um, fast radio bursts, um,
00:19:35 --> 00:19:37 perhaps it's telling you that they, they
00:19:37 --> 00:19:40 don't emit in the
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 lower frequencies, which, um, the
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 mwa, the Murchison Wide Field Array is
00:19:46 --> 00:19:48 tuned to. It's A, it's a low frequency
00:19:48 --> 00:19:51 array and it's a higher frequencies where the
00:19:51 --> 00:19:54 fast radio bursts have been discovered so
00:19:54 --> 00:19:57 far. But um, I think the
00:19:57 --> 00:19:58 improvement in sensitivity
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 um, will actually allow fast
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 radio bursts to be detected and then we might
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 start finding very large numbers.
00:20:07 --> 00:20:10 Because the trick that I didn't mention that
00:20:10 --> 00:20:13 the MWA is able to employ is it can look
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 at the whole sky at once. Oh yeah, Pretty
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 impressive. Good trick. Uh, yeah, that's
00:20:18 --> 00:20:21 um, that's what you can do with um, with a,
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 you know, an array of coat hangers rather
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 than a dish that you've got to point in a
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 particular direction. These coat hangers are
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 bringing signals in all the time and it's
00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 just how you, how you interrogate them. If I
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35 put it that way, uh, that tells you where
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37 you're pointing and you can interrogate many,
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39 many different directions at once.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, quite amazing. So, and, and how much
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 bigger are they going to make the
00:20:44 --> 00:20:45 um, Mwax?
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51 Professor Fred Watson: I think, I think phase
00:20:51 --> 00:20:54 three might be the final thing. I
00:20:54 --> 00:20:55 remember them talking about phase three. I
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58 visited there uh, in 2018.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 Um, I visited the site and saw the
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 ah, array antennas, the Cortana like things.
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 But a bit later than that I also visited
00:21:07 --> 00:21:09 their headquarters which are in Perth in
00:21:09 --> 00:21:11 Western Australia. And this is
00:21:12 --> 00:21:13 probably five years ago now, five to six
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15 years ago. They were talking then about
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 uh, the next phase, but I think that was
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 where their horizon lay. And it may well be
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 that that's the end of the story for the nwa.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:28 But I'm, I'm gonna preface that or not
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30 preface it, but qualify it by saying that
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 could be just based on information that was
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 probably good six years ago but not, might
00:21:36 --> 00:21:36 not be good now.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:39 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well that's the way it goes sometimes.
00:21:40 --> 00:21:42 Professor Fred Watson: Certainly does it. Yes.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:45 We're always out of day. Yeah, well that's,
00:21:45 --> 00:21:47 that's only a few.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 Andrew Dunkley: Days but yeah, yeah that's astronomy. We're
00:21:49 --> 00:21:52 13.8 billion years
00:21:52 --> 00:21:54 out of date sometimes.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:56 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, if you would like to read.
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 Andrew Dunkley: Up on that story, universetoday.com or
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 spaceconnectonline.com or just do a
00:22:02 --> 00:22:05 search for Murchison Wide
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 Field Array, uh, on your favourite search
00:22:08 --> 00:22:10 engine. This is Space Nuts, Andrew Dunkley
00:22:10 --> 00:22:11 here with Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:12 Um,
00:22:14 --> 00:22:17 Space Nuts now final story. Fred Watson
00:22:17 --> 00:22:20 uh, is uh, another goodie and
00:22:20 --> 00:22:23 uh, a bit of a controversial one too. Uh, we,
00:22:23 --> 00:22:25 we've talked many times about Artemis and
00:22:25 --> 00:22:28 the, and the race back to the Moon and uh,
00:22:28 --> 00:22:30 there's quite a few missions sort of
00:22:30 --> 00:22:32 trundling around up there. The, the Indians
00:22:32 --> 00:22:35 are having a Crack as well. Um, but
00:22:35 --> 00:22:37 the space race as we
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 uh, witnessed it through the uh, the 50s and
00:22:41 --> 00:22:43 60s and into the 70s, uh has
00:22:43 --> 00:22:46 sort of got a phase two of its own going on
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 at the moment between the US and China.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52 And if you ask some people they're
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 saying China might win this.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 Professor Fred Watson: Um, and in a way
00:22:59 --> 00:23:02 you know, perhaps just coming to maybe what
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 the, what the reasoning is behind this.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:07 Um, uh, the US
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 has got a very, very ambitious
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 vision for the Artemis project.
00:23:14 --> 00:23:16 Um and that's what's taking
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 astronauts to the moon, uh, by
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 NASA, uh, their vision and what
00:23:22 --> 00:23:24 you know, the point is uh, it's not
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 just planting flags and boots on the ground
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 which is what the Apollo missions were.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:32 That's right. It's much more than that. It's
00:23:32 --> 00:23:35 actually kind of set, setting the stage for a
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38 permanent lunar base. It's
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 doing things like being able to refuel your
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 spacecraft in orbit um,
00:23:44 --> 00:23:47 and transfer fuel. It's having the necessary
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 spacecraft to land you on the moon. Um,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:52 and that's the vision of the, of
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 NASA, uh, which is a lot different
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 probably from China's vision
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 which will be just to get boots on the ground
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 and plant a flag. Uh, and that
00:24:03 --> 00:24:04 now is something
00:24:05 --> 00:24:08 technologically a lot simpler because it's
00:24:08 --> 00:24:10 what they did in the Apollo era. But it's
00:24:10 --> 00:24:12 technologically a lot simpler than what
00:24:12 --> 00:24:14 Artemis uh, is aiming to
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 do. So the story comes about because of
00:24:18 --> 00:24:21 uh, it was a U.S. senate Committee on
00:24:21 --> 00:24:24 Commerce, Science and Transportation. Uh
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 so this uh, uh committee
00:24:27 --> 00:24:30 had testimony from various
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 individuals and perhaps the most notable
00:24:33 --> 00:24:35 was the former NASA administrator. Remember
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 the boss of NASA is called the administrator.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 Um, his name was Jim
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 Bridenstine. Uh, he was a very well known and
00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 very well respected, respected NASA
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 administrator. I think he was followed by
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 Bill Nelson who's the only one I've
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 met. Um, um, and Bill too a
00:24:54 --> 00:24:56 very well respected administrator who
00:24:57 --> 00:24:59 basically uh, left his post
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 at the uh, time of the new government
00:25:02 --> 00:25:05 in the United States. But Jim Bridenstine
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 making a comment um, that he
00:25:09 --> 00:25:11 considered that uh, because of the
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13 complexity and
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 perhaps questioning even the feasibility
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 of NASA's Artemis programme, he
00:25:20 --> 00:25:23 thinks the United States is highly unlikely,
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 and that's his words, highly unlikely to land
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 astronauts on the moon before China
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 because of challenges with
00:25:32 --> 00:25:34 well as it's described orbital refuelling and
00:25:34 --> 00:25:37 an ambitious architecture. So the
00:25:37 --> 00:25:39 architecture is just you know, what, what is
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41 the structure of this mission? How do you do
00:25:41 --> 00:25:43 it? What kind of spacecraft do you use? Where
00:25:43 --> 00:25:45 do you get them? What do you do in orbit?
00:25:46 --> 00:25:48 Um, the, the hearing actually
00:25:48 --> 00:25:51 um, uh has a Provocative
00:25:51 --> 00:25:54 name itself. Um, the hearing
00:25:54 --> 00:25:57 was entitled There's a Bad Moon on the Rise,
00:25:57 --> 00:26:00 why Congress and NASA Must Thwart China in
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03 the Space Race. So it's really quite an
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 interesting one. And it's got, um, you know,
00:26:05 --> 00:26:07 it's got congressmen, congresswomen from both
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 sides, from both sides of politics.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:13 Um, I think, um, the
00:26:15 --> 00:26:17 um, issue that uh,
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 Bridenstine highlights
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24 is, well, there are a few. One is that the
00:26:24 --> 00:26:27 sls, the space Launch System, which you'll
00:26:27 --> 00:26:30 remember has been tested out once with a
00:26:30 --> 00:26:32 robotic fly around the moon. That's probably
00:26:32 --> 00:26:35 was it four years ago now, quite a while
00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 ago. Um, and he describes it as
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 extraordinarily expensive. And I guess
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 by the standards of 2025,
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 that is probably right because we are used
00:26:47 --> 00:26:49 now to a company that
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 reuses all its um,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:55 all its launch vehicles. I saw that SpaceX
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 has flown one of its uh, Falcon 9
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 boosters 30 times. Uh, and
00:27:03 --> 00:27:04 that's amazing. They were talking about
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 limiting it to 10 times, but this one's done
00:27:07 --> 00:27:09 30 launches. And these of course are for
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 Starlink, uh, communication satellites.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 But the SLS is the sort of Rolls Royce of
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 launch systems. It is very, very expensive.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:21 But uh, Bridenstine advocates
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 that for continuing to use it because it's
00:27:24 --> 00:27:27 already there, it's already developed.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30 Um, but uh, his, his complaints
00:27:30 --> 00:27:33 are twofold. One is that
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 in order to do what Artemis will do,
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 uh, you need to be able to refuel spacecraft
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41 in orbit. And this is. These are cryogenic
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 fuels. You know, the temperature is minus
00:27:43 --> 00:27:46 250Celsius or something that
00:27:46 --> 00:27:48 ridiculously cold. That has never been done
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 before. Um, and that has to be done
00:27:51 --> 00:27:54 in order to make this work. And the other
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 complaint is that the lunar lander
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 is um, basically still
00:28:00 --> 00:28:02 untested. So, uh, um,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 There were um,
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 two contracts awarded for
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 what's called the HLS, the Human Landing
00:28:11 --> 00:28:14 System, um, to develop two
00:28:14 --> 00:28:16 vehicles. One is the Starship,
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 SpaceX's Starship, and that's the top end,
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 you know, Starship itself is, is the
00:28:22 --> 00:28:25 Falcon super heavy booster and what they call
00:28:25 --> 00:28:28 the ship, which is the top end of it. Uh, and
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 it's. The ship will also be the
00:28:31 --> 00:28:34 lander, the HLS lander, uh, for
00:28:34 --> 00:28:37 Artemis 3 and 4 missions. Now Artemis 3 is
00:28:37 --> 00:28:38 going to be the first mission to land
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 astronauts back on the moon. Artemis 2
00:28:41 --> 00:28:44 will be a lunar orbit, uh,
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47 mission. But then they also contracted
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 Blue Origin's Blue Moon Mark two, which is
00:28:49 --> 00:28:51 another landing system for Artemis V.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 Uh, now none of these
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 really have been tried and tested yet.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:00 Uh, SpaceX, uh, is talking about
00:29:00 --> 00:29:03 some upcoming missions, uh, which
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06 they hope will be what is required to prove
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 the starship, uh, version. Um, I'm not sure
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 where Blue Origin is, but. So the complaint
00:29:11 --> 00:29:14 is, uh, by Bridenstine, that we're so far
00:29:14 --> 00:29:15 behind with all this, there's a really good
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 chance that the Chinese will get there, uh,
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 get there first. Um. Yeah, it's.
00:29:21 --> 00:29:23 Yep. Go ahead.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:25 Andrew Dunkley: Does it matter? Does it really matter? They
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 have completely different goals, completely
00:29:28 --> 00:29:29 different agendas.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:30 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:32 Andrew Dunkley: Does it really matter if China lands on the
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 moon and starts walking around before the
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 United States does? Is there some advantage
00:29:37 --> 00:29:39 in them doing that? Because they're not
00:29:39 --> 00:29:42 trying to achieve the same end as the
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44 United States, as NASA. So, uh.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 And the US already proved that they were
00:29:47 --> 00:29:49 first back in
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51 1969.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 So it's, it's not
00:29:54 --> 00:29:57 really a race, is it? Not, not, not that kind
00:29:57 --> 00:29:57 of race.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 Professor Fred Watson: Um. Uh. Don't you think if,
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 um. If China landed astronauts on the
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 moon before the US did, the president
00:30:06 --> 00:30:09 would implode, wouldn't he? Or something
00:30:09 --> 00:30:10 would. Yeah.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12 Andrew Dunkley: But, you know, are.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:12 Professor Fred Watson: They.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:15 Andrew Dunkley: Are, ah, they. It's just politics, isn't it?
00:30:15 --> 00:30:17 I mean, it's just posturing that
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 the US has already done it. They don't have
00:30:20 --> 00:30:22 to do it again before China because, you
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 know, they did it before China.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:27 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I, uh. I think national
00:30:28 --> 00:30:29 pride is playing a huge.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:30 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, probably.
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 Professor Fred Watson: And one that we might not recognise to the
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35 extent that perhaps some of our listeners
00:30:35 --> 00:30:37 will. Um, I think it's.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:40 I think it would be a, ah. I think it would
00:30:40 --> 00:30:43 be a real, um, challenge
00:30:43 --> 00:30:46 to the US if China landed first. I
00:30:46 --> 00:30:48 think it really would, in this year, shape
00:30:48 --> 00:30:51 them to the core. Yes, a little
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 bit like. A little bit like
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 when, uh, the Soviet Union put the first
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 artificial satellite into orbit.
00:30:59 --> 00:31:01 I remember the fallout from that. It was,
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 you know, I was still a youngster. I was only
00:31:04 --> 00:31:06 10. Was I? No, was 12.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:09 Anyway, um, it was,
00:31:09 --> 00:31:12 um. You know, it was there. It was, it.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:15 It absolutely shook the US to the
00:31:15 --> 00:31:18 core. Uh, that. That the Soviet
00:31:18 --> 00:31:21 Union could put a spacecraft into orbit,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:22 which meant that it could launch a ballistic
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25 missile anywhere on the planet or land one
00:31:25 --> 00:31:26 anywhere on the planet. So that's the
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 underlying thing. Now that imperative's gone.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:31 Everybody knows that there's half a dozen
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33 countries who could land a ballistic missile
00:31:33 --> 00:31:35 pretty well anywhere on the planet. Um, but I
00:31:35 --> 00:31:38 think it's the national PR issue. I think it
00:31:38 --> 00:31:41 would be seen as an affront almost to
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43 US pride in space. Uh,
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 what is going to happen about it? I don't
00:31:46 --> 00:31:47 know. I don't know whether this hearing will
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 actually produce any changes, but
00:31:51 --> 00:31:53 be interesting to see how it goes.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 Andrew Dunkley: It will, yes. Uh, you can read all about
00:31:56 --> 00:31:58 it@nasaspaceflight.com.
00:31:59 --> 00:32:01 um, yeah. Very interesting article indeed.
00:32:02 --> 00:32:05 Um, Fred Watson, we've done. That's it.
00:32:05 --> 00:32:06 Professor Fred Watson: Good gracious.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:09 Andrew Dunkley: Just for this episode.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:11 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Episode 555. Yes.
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 Andrew Dunkley: I didn't mention that, did I? Yeah, 555.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:17 Um, I don't know. Is that a lucky number in
00:32:17 --> 00:32:19 China? In China or is it triple A?
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 I don't know. Um, yes.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:25 Anyway, Fred Watson, thank you so much. It's
00:32:25 --> 00:32:25 always good fun.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 Professor Fred Watson: It is. Uh, thank you for having me, Andrew.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:31 Um, I'll be invited back sometimes.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 Andrew Dunkley: Maybe in five minutes, five days,
00:32:35 --> 00:32:36 whatever comes first.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:36 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:38 Andrew Dunkley: You never know. Thanks, Fred Watson.
00:32:38 --> 00:32:40 Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at
00:32:40 --> 00:32:43 large, part of the team here at Spacenus. Uh,
00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 and of course, uh, thanks to Huw in the
00:32:45 --> 00:32:47 studio, who couldn't be with us today, had to
00:32:47 --> 00:32:50 put his cat Sputnik down. Uh,
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 unfortunately, I don't know where that came
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55 from. And from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 your company. We'll see you on the next
00:32:57 --> 00:32:59 episode of Space Nuts.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05 Space Nuts. Hello again. Thanks for joining
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08 us. This is Space Nuts, where we talk
00:33:08 --> 00:33:11 astronomy and space science. And it's
00:33:11 --> 00:33:13 good to have your company on this a Q A
00:33:13 --> 00:33:16 edition. And what are we talking about today?
00:33:16 --> 00:33:18 Oh, uh, something completely different, new
00:33:18 --> 00:33:21 and unchallenged in the annals of
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 Space Nuts and the wider world of astronomy.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:26 Uh, somebody's got a black hole question
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31 and the next question is a dark matter
00:33:31 --> 00:33:33 question. They just dovetail beautifully,
00:33:33 --> 00:33:36 those two. And then, uh, we've got a bit of a
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 Dutch treat for you. Uh, Robert from the
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 Netherlands is asking about the Fermi paradox
00:33:41 --> 00:33:43 and Angela from the Netherlands has,
00:33:44 --> 00:33:46 um, an idea to send bugs into space
00:33:47 --> 00:33:50 on purpose. And joining us again to
00:33:50 --> 00:33:52 solve all of those little riddles is
00:33:52 --> 00:33:53 Professor Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at
00:33:53 --> 00:33:55 large, still wearing the same shirt as he was
00:33:55 --> 00:33:56 last. Hello, Fred Watson.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I only change my shirts
00:34:01 --> 00:34:02 once a week, apparently.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:05 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Ah, well, I do that on holidays because
00:34:08 --> 00:34:11 although on our, on our cruise we, um, we
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 did all our own washing because. Well, they
00:34:14 --> 00:34:16 charge you to do washing on a, on a cruise
00:34:16 --> 00:34:18 ship if you, if you want them to do it. But,
00:34:18 --> 00:34:20 uh, they had laundries on this ship, so we
00:34:20 --> 00:34:22 did our own, which turned out to be a very
00:34:22 --> 00:34:23 good thing.
00:34:23 --> 00:34:26 Professor Fred Watson: So, um, it's sort of where
00:34:26 --> 00:34:28 on. You're on board for 13 weeks, weren't
00:34:28 --> 00:34:31 you? 13 weeks is a little bit long to keep
00:34:31 --> 00:34:31 the same shirt.
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, basically it's pretty tough wearing the
00:34:34 --> 00:34:37 same pair of undies. For 13 weeks and
00:34:37 --> 00:34:39 expecting people to actually sit down and
00:34:39 --> 00:34:40 have dinner with you.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:43 Professor Fred Watson: It's. It's not.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:44 It's not.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:46 Andrew Dunkley: Not advised. Not advised, no.
00:34:47 --> 00:34:49 Professor Fred Watson: You sounds like you tried it, actually.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:54 Andrew Dunkley: No, I haven't. No, I haven't.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:56 Professor Fred Watson: Your wife wouldn't let me do that. No.
00:34:56 --> 00:34:57 Andrew Dunkley: No, definitely not.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:00 Um, now, uh, we've got a bunch of questions
00:35:00 --> 00:35:02 to get through, and we.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:04 Professor Fred Watson: Might as well get the ball rolling.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:06 Andrew Dunkley: With Dave, who has a question
00:35:06 --> 00:35:08 related to black holes.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 Speaker C: Hey, Professor Fred Watson Watson,
00:35:11 --> 00:35:13 Andrew and or Heidi, whoever this may be.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:17 Um, got a question about black holes. Like
00:35:17 --> 00:35:20 all my other questions. I've been watching a
00:35:20 --> 00:35:22 lot of documentaries and something
00:35:23 --> 00:35:25 that still questions me is
00:35:26 --> 00:35:29 black holes, do they move or are they
00:35:29 --> 00:35:31 stationary? And if they do move,
00:35:32 --> 00:35:34 do they move through space and time
00:35:36 --> 00:35:38 or space time, like the fabric of space?
00:35:39 --> 00:35:41 And if so, are they eating the fabric of
00:35:41 --> 00:35:44 space or is it just going around the black
00:35:44 --> 00:35:46 hole and then back into place? How come we
00:35:46 --> 00:35:49 don't see trails behind the black holes where
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51 they've just eaten away fabric of space?
00:35:52 --> 00:35:55 Um, not quite sure how that works
00:35:55 --> 00:35:56 or anything like that.
00:35:58 --> 00:36:01 And if, if they all do rotate, which we think
00:36:01 --> 00:36:03 they do, do they
00:36:04 --> 00:36:07 rotationally pull on the fabric of
00:36:07 --> 00:36:07 space?
00:36:08 --> 00:36:09 Professor Fred Watson: Thank you.
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 Andrew Dunkley: Okay, great. Ah, question. Thank you, Dave.
00:36:13 --> 00:36:16 And we'll get a great answer. Now,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 although it's an interesting question, we,
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 um, from my perspective, and I think we
00:36:21 --> 00:36:23 have touched on this before,
00:36:24 --> 00:36:26 everything moves in space. Nothing is
00:36:26 --> 00:36:28 standing still, is it?
00:36:29 --> 00:36:31 Professor Fred Watson: No, you're right, Andrew. That's exactly the.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:32 That's exactly the answer I was about to
00:36:32 --> 00:36:33 give.
00:36:33 --> 00:36:34 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, okay. Thanks, Dave.
00:36:34 --> 00:36:35 Next question comes from.
00:36:37 --> 00:36:39 Professor Fred Watson: Um, let's just, um, cover
00:36:40 --> 00:36:42 Dave's last part of that question first,
00:36:42 --> 00:36:44 which is trials. Do they.
00:36:45 --> 00:36:48 It was where if black holes are rotating, do
00:36:48 --> 00:36:51 they. The space time kind of do
00:36:51 --> 00:36:53 they drag it round? And indeed they do. It's
00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 a process called frame dragging. Um, the
00:36:55 --> 00:36:57 Earth does it actually. So any rotating
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 object drags the framework of space
00:37:00 --> 00:37:02 time around with it. And I think the same
00:37:02 --> 00:37:04 happens with black holes. I think we covered
00:37:05 --> 00:37:07 the story, um, probably
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10 a couple of years ago maybe, Andrew, which
00:37:10 --> 00:37:13 was about a demonstration that black
00:37:13 --> 00:37:15 holes, rotating black holes do,
00:37:16 --> 00:37:19 um, uh, exhibit frame dragging, that
00:37:19 --> 00:37:21 space time does sort of get dragged around
00:37:21 --> 00:37:24 with them. Uh, so, uh,
00:37:24 --> 00:37:27 having said that, um, then
00:37:28 --> 00:37:30 the idea of black holes moving through
00:37:30 --> 00:37:33 space is not, I guess, that difficult.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:35 Uh, and indeed they do exactly as you've
00:37:35 --> 00:37:38 said, Andrew. Everything moves, uh, and it's
00:37:38 --> 00:37:40 twofold. One is that they're being carried
00:37:40 --> 00:37:42 along by space itself, what we call the
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 Hubble flow, which is Due to the expansion of
00:37:45 --> 00:37:47 the universe. And I think Dave touched on
00:37:47 --> 00:37:50 that by talking about, you know, the fabric
00:37:50 --> 00:37:52 of space time. Yes, the fabric of space time
00:37:52 --> 00:37:54 itself is moving and takes stuff along with
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 it. Um, but,
00:37:57 --> 00:38:00 uh, uh, galaxies we
00:38:00 --> 00:38:02 know, have what we call peculiar velocities.
00:38:03 --> 00:38:05 Uh, they actually move around, um,
00:38:06 --> 00:38:08 within the moving fabric of space.
00:38:10 --> 00:38:12 Excuse me. The analogue that we often give
00:38:12 --> 00:38:15 is, uh, to liken the expansion of the
00:38:15 --> 00:38:17 universe to a river flowing. And the galaxies
00:38:17 --> 00:38:20 being like people zooming around the river on
00:38:20 --> 00:38:21 boats. They're being carried along by the
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23 river flow, but they still move around with
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 their own peculiar motion. And galaxies
00:38:26 --> 00:38:29 do that too, not perhaps zipping around quite
00:38:29 --> 00:38:32 like boats do. Uh, but, uh, they're
00:38:32 --> 00:38:33 drawn to one another by their own gravity.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:36 Uh, so they do move through space. And yes,
00:38:36 --> 00:38:39 um, a black hole will move through the space
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 time that it's in, but it won't leave a
00:38:42 --> 00:38:45 trail behind it. Um, the space
00:38:45 --> 00:38:48 time bends around it, just as Dave suggested.
00:38:48 --> 00:38:50 There, uh, as it goes through, it's
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53 distorting the space time. But, uh, you know,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:55 the space time sort of recovers as it's gone
00:38:55 --> 00:38:58 past. Uh, so it's not like there'll be a
00:38:58 --> 00:39:00 wake that we could look for trailing behind,
00:39:01 --> 00:39:03 uh, supermassive black holes. Interesting
00:39:03 --> 00:39:03 idea, though.
00:39:04 --> 00:39:06 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Yeah, it'd be. It'd be so easy to find
00:39:06 --> 00:39:07 them if they left trails.
00:39:08 --> 00:39:10 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. It would.
00:39:10 --> 00:39:13 Andrew Dunkley: Let's say you chase snails, you know, if
00:39:13 --> 00:39:14 you're a snail hunter.
00:39:15 --> 00:39:18 Professor Fred Watson: Well, I'm sure you do. Yeah, we get, um,
00:39:18 --> 00:39:21 on damp days, uh, we occasionally get invaded
00:39:21 --> 00:39:23 by slugs in our. In our laundry and
00:39:23 --> 00:39:26 daily trails as well, which are based.
00:39:29 --> 00:39:29 Yeah.
00:39:29 --> 00:39:32 Andrew Dunkley: Where were we the other day? Um, and walked
00:39:32 --> 00:39:33 outside because it had been raining, and
00:39:33 --> 00:39:36 there were slugs the size of sausage dogs.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:39 Uh, they were. They were enormous.
00:39:39 --> 00:39:42 Was in the United States somewhere up in, uh.
00:39:42 --> 00:39:44 Up around Buffalo, I think, somewhere. Oh,
00:39:44 --> 00:39:45 yeah.
00:39:46 --> 00:39:47 Professor Fred Watson: Big boogers.
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, no. Was it Niagara Falls? Niagara
00:39:50 --> 00:39:53 Falls. They were like this, like, you
00:39:53 --> 00:39:54 know, you could wrap them around your head if
00:39:54 --> 00:39:56 you're so inclined, get a decent.
00:39:56 --> 00:39:57 Professor Fred Watson: Meal out of one of them.
00:39:57 --> 00:39:58 Andrew Dunkley: Oh, yeah.
00:39:58 --> 00:39:58 Professor Fred Watson: Yes.
00:39:58 --> 00:40:01 Andrew Dunkley: Yum. Um, although that reminds me,
00:40:01 --> 00:40:03 while we were overseas, I think it was when
00:40:03 --> 00:40:06 we were in Spain. Listen to me. Name
00:40:06 --> 00:40:08 dropping. Um, the, um.
00:40:08 --> 00:40:11 Um. One of the staff on the ship was doing a
00:40:11 --> 00:40:13 presentation about our next stop, and she
00:40:13 --> 00:40:15 said, while you're there, go and get some of
00:40:15 --> 00:40:16 this stuff. And it was. It was like a skin
00:40:16 --> 00:40:19 cream that had snail slime in it.
00:40:21 --> 00:40:24 My wife bought some and is still using
00:40:24 --> 00:40:27 it. Uh, she thinks it's fabulous.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:29 So there you are. There's something to that.
00:40:29 --> 00:40:31 Go and rub snails on your face.
00:40:33 --> 00:40:35 And by the way, that, uh, that still, that
00:40:35 --> 00:40:37 story you referred to from a couple of years
00:40:37 --> 00:40:40 ago, uh, was, uh, about frame
00:40:40 --> 00:40:43 dragging, uh, of supermassive black holes
00:40:43 --> 00:40:45 was, uh. May 2024. There you are.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:48 Professor Fred Watson: Okay. Hm. There you go. The memory's not
00:40:49 --> 00:40:51 quite gone yet, but it will eventually.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55 Andrew Dunkley: I do recall us talking about it. Uh,
00:40:55 --> 00:40:56 thanks, David, for your question.
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 Our next question comes from Jared in
00:40:59 --> 00:41:02 Melbourne. Hi, Fred Watson, Heidi, Huw, Dave.
00:41:02 --> 00:41:03 Just kidding, Andrew. Thank you. They haven't
00:41:03 --> 00:41:06 gotten the Dave thing, have they? Haven't let
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 that one go. So, three months away, that one
00:41:08 --> 00:41:11 would die its natural death. But no, no, it's
00:41:11 --> 00:41:13 just popped itself up again. Um,
00:41:14 --> 00:41:16 we talk about galaxies having halos of
00:41:16 --> 00:41:19 dark matter gravitationally bound to them,
00:41:19 --> 00:41:22 thus affecting their rotational rate
00:41:22 --> 00:41:24 as compared to the predicted rotation
00:41:24 --> 00:41:27 rate's, uh, centre edge.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:30 Yeah. Okay. Uh, so then while. Yeah,
00:41:31 --> 00:41:33 so then while wondering if the sun
00:41:33 --> 00:41:36 has a portion of dark matter gravitationally
00:41:36 --> 00:41:39 bound to it, I read that people think it's
00:41:39 --> 00:41:42 m. Not much of a halo at all for something
00:41:42 --> 00:41:44 like the sun, as dark matter particles are
00:41:44 --> 00:41:47 moving too fast to be captured by the Sun.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:50 I'm very interested to know why people, uh,
00:41:50 --> 00:41:53 might expect dark matter to be moving too
00:41:53 --> 00:41:55 fast to be captured by the sun when we have
00:41:55 --> 00:41:58 so few insights about what it is at all.
00:41:58 --> 00:42:00 How do they conclude it's whizzing around
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03 faster than escape velocity? Keen, uh,
00:42:04 --> 00:42:06 to get your thoughts. Keep up the great work.
00:42:06 --> 00:42:08 Jared from Melbourne.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:13 Professor Fred Watson: And great question. Which, um,
00:42:13 --> 00:42:16 doesn't really have an answer. Okay.
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19 Um, and that's because we know so little
00:42:19 --> 00:42:21 about dark matter. Um,
00:42:21 --> 00:42:24 it's certainly, uh,
00:42:24 --> 00:42:27 the thinking a few years ago
00:42:27 --> 00:42:29 was that dark matter
00:42:30 --> 00:42:33 halos have a minimum size or blobs
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 of dark matter have a minimum size. And as
00:42:36 --> 00:42:38 Gerard suggests, that would be related to the
00:42:38 --> 00:42:41 velocity of the dark matter particles. Um,
00:42:42 --> 00:42:44 you know what that minimum size would be? Uh,
00:42:45 --> 00:42:47 if the, the faster the particles are moving,
00:42:47 --> 00:42:50 the bigger the blob of dark matter. I
00:42:50 --> 00:42:53 seem to remember a number being touted around
00:42:53 --> 00:42:56 which was about 100 parsecs and a parsec is.
00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 Was it 3.23 light years? I can never
00:42:59 --> 00:43:00 get the exact number. It's about three light
00:43:00 --> 00:43:03 years. So roughly 300 light years.
00:43:04 --> 00:43:06 However, I think there have been more recent
00:43:06 --> 00:43:09 observations that suggest that it might be
00:43:09 --> 00:43:11 clumpier than that it might clump together on
00:43:11 --> 00:43:14 smaller scales. Um, however, having
00:43:14 --> 00:43:17 said that, I think it is probably
00:43:17 --> 00:43:20 unlikely, though, that the sun itself would
00:43:20 --> 00:43:22 have uh, its own lump of dark matter.
00:43:22 --> 00:43:25 I think the, you know, the sun's
00:43:25 --> 00:43:27 neighbourhood and the spiral arms
00:43:28 --> 00:43:30 that were embedded in might,
00:43:31 --> 00:43:34 might have higher density, uh, chunks
00:43:34 --> 00:43:37 of dark matter than perhaps the outer halo
00:43:37 --> 00:43:39 of the galaxy. Uh, but
00:43:40 --> 00:43:41 if it's, you know, if those early
00:43:41 --> 00:43:43 measurements are anything like realistic,
00:43:43 --> 00:43:46 then it would be on a scale of hundreds of
00:43:46 --> 00:43:48 light years rather than um, hundreds of
00:43:48 --> 00:43:50 millions of kilometres, which is what you'd
00:43:50 --> 00:43:53 need for it to be within bound to the
00:43:53 --> 00:43:56 solar system. So uh, we don't really know the
00:43:56 --> 00:43:59 answer to your question, Gerard, but um,
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01 people do think about it. It's one of the
00:44:02 --> 00:44:04 biggest big issues and one of the challenges
00:44:04 --> 00:44:07 is how do you plot, how do you map the
00:44:07 --> 00:44:10 biggest or smallest chunk of dark matter? Um,
00:44:10 --> 00:44:13 when the best way to
00:44:13 --> 00:44:16 see it is um,
00:44:16 --> 00:44:19 to look at the distortion
00:44:19 --> 00:44:22 effect of say a cluster of galaxies in the
00:44:22 --> 00:44:24 foreground and look at how that distorts the
00:44:24 --> 00:44:26 images of galaxies in the background. Because
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28 the distortion is due to all the mass in the
00:44:28 --> 00:44:31 cluster, not just the mass you can see
00:44:31 --> 00:44:33 that allows you to map the dark matter in a
00:44:33 --> 00:44:36 cluster. Um, but it, it doesn't
00:44:36 --> 00:44:39 really, unless you've got some very special
00:44:39 --> 00:44:41 circumstances, it doesn't really make it
00:44:41 --> 00:44:44 easy to say just how big or
00:44:44 --> 00:44:47 small the biggest lump of dark matter, the
00:44:47 --> 00:44:50 characteristic lump size of dark
00:44:50 --> 00:44:52 matter might be. Um, so we're still working
00:44:52 --> 00:44:54 on it, uh, and um, maybe we'll get back to
00:44:54 --> 00:44:55 you when we know the answer.
00:44:56 --> 00:44:59 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well, you never know. Uh, a parsec is
00:44:59 --> 00:45:01 equal to 3.26 light years.
00:45:02 --> 00:45:04 Professor Fred Watson: I think I said 3.23, didn't I? And that's
00:45:04 --> 00:45:07 wrong. Well, it's close. 3.3. It's close.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:09 Yeah. I can never remember the last number in
00:45:09 --> 00:45:12 that 3.26 should be really, it's easy to
00:45:12 --> 00:45:14 remember because three times two is six. So
00:45:14 --> 00:45:16 that should tell you, shouldn't it, on there,
00:45:16 --> 00:45:19 you know, uh, neat. Well, all I've got to do
00:45:19 --> 00:45:20 is remember that.
00:45:20 --> 00:45:21 Andrew Dunkley: Test you next week.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:27 Professor Fred Watson: Thanks. Thanks Dave. Thanks Dave.
00:45:27 --> 00:45:29 I always appreciate your tests.
00:45:31 --> 00:45:34 Andrew Dunkley: Okay, uh, thanks Jared, for your question.
00:45:34 --> 00:45:36 This is Space Nuts Andrew Dunkley here with
00:45:36 --> 00:45:37 Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:41 Space Nuts. Uh, now, uh,
00:45:41 --> 00:45:43 welcome to the Dutch part of our show
00:45:43 --> 00:45:45 where uh, all the questions come from the
00:45:45 --> 00:45:47 Netherlands. And the first one is from
00:45:48 --> 00:45:48 Robert.
00:45:49 --> 00:45:50 Professor Fred Watson: Hey, Professor.
00:45:50 --> 00:45:52 Andrew Dunkley: No, it's not. This one is hello friend
00:45:52 --> 00:45:53 Andrew and.
00:45:53 --> 00:45:56 Professor Fred Watson: Heidi, this is Robert from the Netherlands.
00:45:56 --> 00:45:59 I have a question about the resolution to the
00:45:59 --> 00:46:02 Fermi paradox. What could be the most
00:46:02 --> 00:46:04 credible answer to this conundrum? Is it
00:46:04 --> 00:46:07 because the rare Earth theory that Their
00:46:07 --> 00:46:10 civilizations of aliens are very, very rare.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:12 Are they very hostile? And if they destroy
00:46:12 --> 00:46:14 everything around us, are they simply too far
00:46:14 --> 00:46:17 away and they stop expanding after a couple
00:46:17 --> 00:46:19 of planets? Or are we alone in the
00:46:19 --> 00:46:21 universe? I would love to hear the
00:46:21 --> 00:46:24 professor's opinion this. Thank you so much.
00:46:25 --> 00:46:28 Andrew Dunkley: Thank you Robert. Um, yeah, it
00:46:28 --> 00:46:31 brings up that age old question which I'm
00:46:31 --> 00:46:34 sure you were going to ask question,
00:46:34 --> 00:46:35 where is everybody?
00:46:36 --> 00:46:38 Professor Fred Watson: Well that's right, that was the um, that's
00:46:38 --> 00:46:40 the basis of the Fermi paradox. Yeah, passed
00:46:40 --> 00:46:43 in 1950. And the logic, Enrico
00:46:43 --> 00:46:46 Fermi's logic was if you
00:46:46 --> 00:46:49 have space faring
00:46:49 --> 00:46:52 civilizations, um, which uh,
00:46:52 --> 00:46:55 evolved you know, maybe a few billion
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 years ago, um, then there should be evidence
00:46:58 --> 00:47:00 for them everywhere. And
00:47:01 --> 00:47:03 we don't see it, we uh, don't see any
00:47:03 --> 00:47:06 evidence. Uh, that evidence might be in the
00:47:06 --> 00:47:08 form of artefacts. If
00:47:08 --> 00:47:11 they've sent things into orbit around, you
00:47:11 --> 00:47:13 know, the solar systems. And there's at least
00:47:13 --> 00:47:15 one person on our planet who thinks that's
00:47:15 --> 00:47:18 happened already. Uh, Avi Loeb with some of
00:47:18 --> 00:47:21 these um, extraterrestrial asteroids and
00:47:21 --> 00:47:23 comet comets, probably all three of them
00:47:23 --> 00:47:26 anyway. Ah so. But we don't have
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29 any real evidence that that's the case. And I
00:47:29 --> 00:47:32 think I would lump together Robert's first
00:47:32 --> 00:47:34 and last options there
00:47:34 --> 00:47:37 where he spoke about the Earth being in
00:47:37 --> 00:47:39 incredibly, or Earth like conditions being
00:47:39 --> 00:47:42 incredibly rare so that
00:47:42 --> 00:47:45 intelligent life might be incredibly rare. Or
00:47:45 --> 00:47:48 his last option, that it's unique, that we
00:47:48 --> 00:47:51 are unique in the universe. Um, those two
00:47:51 --> 00:47:53 are not that different from one another.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:56 Um, because either way, you know, if, if
00:47:56 --> 00:47:58 you've only got one civilization,
00:47:59 --> 00:48:02 communicable civilization per galaxy,
00:48:02 --> 00:48:05 um, and then you might as well forget it.
00:48:05 --> 00:48:07 You're alone in the universe basically.
00:48:08 --> 00:48:11 Um, which I think is, I uh,
00:48:11 --> 00:48:14 think that is disturbing because
00:48:14 --> 00:48:17 it means, you know, if we wipe ourselves
00:48:17 --> 00:48:19 out or if we become extinct through whatever
00:48:19 --> 00:48:22 process, uh, we are,
00:48:22 --> 00:48:25 we are how the universe thinks about itself.
00:48:25 --> 00:48:27 That's um, I think that's a quote from Brian
00:48:27 --> 00:48:30 Cox. Life is what lets the universe
00:48:30 --> 00:48:33 understand itself. Um, and
00:48:33 --> 00:48:35 um, if we, if we're
00:48:35 --> 00:48:38 gone and uh, well and we're the only species
00:48:38 --> 00:48:39 in the universe that can understand it,
00:48:39 --> 00:48:42 what's the rest of it for? Well, it's all
00:48:42 --> 00:48:44 a bit of, a, bit of a pain.
00:48:44 --> 00:48:47 Andrew Dunkley: Well yeah, but it brings about,
00:48:47 --> 00:48:50 um, you know, you can get into areas
00:48:50 --> 00:48:52 of theology then. And um,
00:48:54 --> 00:48:55 then that's one
00:48:57 --> 00:49:00 um, idea that uh, is well documented and well
00:49:00 --> 00:49:02 supported. Um, creationism,
00:49:03 --> 00:49:05 uh, we could just be
00:49:05 --> 00:49:08 one freak accident that.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:09 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:49:10 --> 00:49:13 Andrew Dunkley: And the universe existing
00:49:13 --> 00:49:16 in itself is the greatest mystery. How is
00:49:16 --> 00:49:18 their existence? I think I've asked that
00:49:18 --> 00:49:20 question before and no one's ever told me the
00:49:20 --> 00:49:20 answer.
00:49:20 --> 00:49:22 Professor Fred Watson: It's a philosophical question, that's what it
00:49:22 --> 00:49:22 is.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:23 Andrew Dunkley: It is, yeah.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:26 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, um, I mean it's uh, you know
00:49:26 --> 00:49:29 there's um, there's a quantum physics answer
00:49:29 --> 00:49:31 to that as well. If, if um, if
00:49:32 --> 00:49:34 we weren't there to perceive the universe,
00:49:35 --> 00:49:38 would the universe still exist? Because um,
00:49:38 --> 00:49:41 in quantum mechanics it looks as though the
00:49:41 --> 00:49:43 observer plays a significant role in the
00:49:43 --> 00:49:46 nature of reality. And that's why scientists
00:49:46 --> 00:49:48 are constantly looking for a theory that
00:49:48 --> 00:49:51 underpins both quantum mechanics
00:49:51 --> 00:49:53 and relativity. Uh,
00:49:55 --> 00:49:57 the grand unifying theory which we haven't
00:49:57 --> 00:50:00 got yet, uh, that might tell us whether the
00:50:00 --> 00:50:03 observer is necessary, uh, in
00:50:03 --> 00:50:06 terms of the well being of the universe. It
00:50:06 --> 00:50:09 raises extraordinary questions. Uh, but I
00:50:09 --> 00:50:11 think it's certainly my thinking, and this
00:50:11 --> 00:50:13 comes from talking to astrobiologists who
00:50:13 --> 00:50:16 think that step from um, from
00:50:16 --> 00:50:19 single celled organisms to multi celled
00:50:19 --> 00:50:22 organisms could be a really rare step.
00:50:22 --> 00:50:25 Uh, then perhaps we are very rare. Perhaps we
00:50:25 --> 00:50:27 are a freak of nature. Um,
00:50:27 --> 00:50:30 it's uh, I would lean towards that
00:50:30 --> 00:50:32 rather than the idea that life is everywhere,
00:50:33 --> 00:50:35 uh, and think that the answer to the Fermi
00:50:35 --> 00:50:37 paradox. Where is everybody? Well, they're
00:50:37 --> 00:50:39 just not there, most of them. Yeah, yeah,
00:50:39 --> 00:50:40 they're not there.
00:50:40 --> 00:50:43 Andrew Dunkley: Well there may not be peoples, but there may
00:50:43 --> 00:50:46 be bacterial life of some kind or.
00:50:46 --> 00:50:48 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right, but, and that might turn
00:50:48 --> 00:50:51 out to be quite common, but it needn't
00:50:51 --> 00:50:53 necessarily evolve into anything more
00:50:53 --> 00:50:53 substantial.
00:50:54 --> 00:50:57 Andrew Dunkley: No, no, definitely not. And if you're looking
00:50:57 --> 00:50:59 for aliens, as you said, if they've been
00:50:59 --> 00:51:00 around long enough, we should see the
00:51:00 --> 00:51:03 evidence, uh, whether it be a um,
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05 passing spacecraft or a
00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 megastructure of some kind that we
00:51:08 --> 00:51:11 might see around a planet or a star or
00:51:11 --> 00:51:13 a um, uh,
00:51:14 --> 00:51:17 a conspicuous gas in their atmosphere that
00:51:17 --> 00:51:20 couldn't be natural, things like that. But we
00:51:20 --> 00:51:21 haven't found any of that.
00:51:21 --> 00:51:24 Professor Fred Watson: Airport radar, uh, all of that airport
00:51:24 --> 00:51:26 radar, yes. Square kilometre array able to
00:51:26 --> 00:51:29 detect airport radar at 50 light years. So
00:51:29 --> 00:51:32 once it comes on stream we
00:51:32 --> 00:51:34 might know we're alone within 50 light years.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:37 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, well that is it exactly.
00:51:38 --> 00:51:40 Uh, so Robert. No, um, yes,
00:51:41 --> 00:51:43 we're still alone at this point in time. And
00:51:43 --> 00:51:46 um. Yes, and we're feeling it, we really are.
00:51:48 --> 00:51:51 Um, but I'm, I, I sort
00:51:51 --> 00:51:53 of err on the side of caution when it comes
00:51:53 --> 00:51:55 to revealing our presence. I'm, I'm a little
00:51:55 --> 00:51:58 bit with um, Stephen,
00:51:58 --> 00:52:01 Stephen Hawking. Uh, yeah, you don't want to
00:52:01 --> 00:52:03 make Too big a noise. Just in case they go,
00:52:03 --> 00:52:05 oh, that's a lovely place. We'll have that.
00:52:06 --> 00:52:09 So the British and the Portuguese did so.
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 And the Dutch. And the Dutch. Our last two
00:52:12 --> 00:52:15 people are Dutch. My wife's Dutch, so I can
00:52:15 --> 00:52:16 get away with things like that.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:18 Professor Fred Watson: The, um. Yeah.
00:52:18 --> 00:52:21 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, and the French. I mean, the French did it
00:52:21 --> 00:52:21 too.
00:52:22 --> 00:52:25 Professor Fred Watson: We, we, um. We're already, you
00:52:25 --> 00:52:27 know, we've already given it away because
00:52:27 --> 00:52:29 we've got airport radar.
00:52:31 --> 00:52:33 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, we have. Yes, we have.
00:52:33 --> 00:52:35 Thanks, Robert. Great to hear from you. And
00:52:35 --> 00:52:37 our final question comes from the
00:52:37 --> 00:52:39 Netherlands. And it's, uh, a text
00:52:39 --> 00:52:42 question from Angela. I learned from earlier
00:52:42 --> 00:52:45 episodes that any it sent to space must
00:52:45 --> 00:52:48 be sterile, free of bugs. This is
00:52:48 --> 00:52:50 to prevent contamination of the celestial
00:52:50 --> 00:52:52 bodies. However, could we consider the
00:52:52 --> 00:52:55 opposite? Send bugs, seeds, bacteria,
00:52:55 --> 00:52:58 etc. Out into space on purpose. This
00:52:58 --> 00:53:01 will give life a small chance to
00:53:01 --> 00:53:03 evolve somewhere else and escape
00:53:03 --> 00:53:05 the potential one and only planet in our
00:53:05 --> 00:53:08 Milky Way that contains life. Kind regards,
00:53:08 --> 00:53:11 Angela from Amsterdam. She's sort of going
00:53:11 --> 00:53:14 on from what, um, Robert was talking
00:53:14 --> 00:53:17 about. Um, you know, we've got evidence of
00:53:17 --> 00:53:19 life on one planet, but she's saying, well,
00:53:19 --> 00:53:22 why don't we go seeding the other planets?
00:53:22 --> 00:53:24 Let's, you know, let's not keep our, uh,
00:53:24 --> 00:53:27 spacecraft, uh, clean. Let's
00:53:27 --> 00:53:29 just line people up. You can all hock on the
00:53:29 --> 00:53:32 spacecraft and off
00:53:32 --> 00:53:35 it goes and we see the
00:53:35 --> 00:53:37 universe. Um, look, it worked
00:53:37 --> 00:53:40 in South America. The Spanish took all their
00:53:40 --> 00:53:42 nasties over there and nearly wiped the
00:53:42 --> 00:53:43 people out. So.
00:53:44 --> 00:53:46 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right, yeah.
00:53:47 --> 00:53:50 Uh, so, uh, I mean,
00:53:51 --> 00:53:53 to some extent this has already happened. Uh,
00:53:53 --> 00:53:56 because, uh, the. I think it was the
00:53:56 --> 00:53:59 Beersheba spacecraft, which was a
00:53:59 --> 00:54:02 private Israeli venture
00:54:02 --> 00:54:05 which crashed on the moon, carried
00:54:05 --> 00:54:07 fruit flies, it carried tardigrades,
00:54:08 --> 00:54:10 carried a few of other things. Um,
00:54:10 --> 00:54:13 they presumably perished in the accident.
00:54:13 --> 00:54:15 But the question I would have for
00:54:15 --> 00:54:18 Angela, I mean. Yes, okay, you fill a
00:54:18 --> 00:54:21 spacecraft full of earthly creatures. It's a
00:54:21 --> 00:54:23 bit like Noah's Ark, really. Yeah. Two by
00:54:23 --> 00:54:25 two, um, you
00:54:26 --> 00:54:29 seal it so that it's
00:54:29 --> 00:54:32 not gonna destroy
00:54:32 --> 00:54:35 another planet, uh, or
00:54:35 --> 00:54:37 seed another planet if it crashes. So you
00:54:37 --> 00:54:40 make it crash proof. But then you've got to
00:54:40 --> 00:54:42 sustain these organisms to keep them alive.
00:54:43 --> 00:54:46 And that's a, uh, tricky mission.
00:54:46 --> 00:54:48 Uh, you know, how do you. If you're talking
00:54:48 --> 00:54:51 about, um, lengths of time measured
00:54:51 --> 00:54:54 perhaps in millions or billions of
00:54:54 --> 00:54:57 years, which is how long it might take to
00:54:57 --> 00:55:00 land on another world in another solar
00:55:00 --> 00:55:02 system. Uh, how do you keep things alive
00:55:02 --> 00:55:03 for that long?
00:55:03 --> 00:55:04 Andrew Dunkley: I've got the answer.
00:55:05 --> 00:55:05 Professor Fred Watson: Have you all good?
00:55:05 --> 00:55:07 Andrew Dunkley: I've got the answer. When I was growing up,
00:55:08 --> 00:55:10 they were selling sea monkeys
00:55:11 --> 00:55:13 at toys stores. Yeah.
00:55:13 --> 00:55:14 Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
00:55:14 --> 00:55:15 Andrew Dunkley: You bought the packet?
00:55:16 --> 00:55:16 Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
00:55:16 --> 00:55:19 Andrew Dunkley: You filled, you filled a jar full of water,
00:55:19 --> 00:55:21 you tipped the packet in and then all these
00:55:21 --> 00:55:24 things came to life. Uh,
00:55:24 --> 00:55:25 sea monkeys.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:26 Professor Fred Watson: What were they?
00:55:26 --> 00:55:27 Andrew Dunkley: Dunno. Krill
00:55:29 --> 00:55:32 probably, something like that. There was a
00:55:32 --> 00:55:34 kind of little crustacean. Hang on, I'm going
00:55:34 --> 00:55:36 to look it up. I honestly can't remember what
00:55:36 --> 00:55:37 they were.
00:55:37 --> 00:55:39 Professor Fred Watson: Tardigrades are a bit like that because
00:55:39 --> 00:55:41 tardigrades can dehydrate themselves
00:55:41 --> 00:55:43 completely. That's how they. They've survived
00:55:43 --> 00:55:45 on the outside of the space station.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:48 Um, but once you.
00:55:48 --> 00:55:51 Andrew Dunkley: Brian, I was right. They're shrimp. Brine
00:55:51 --> 00:55:52 shrimp. We're seeing monkeys.
00:55:52 --> 00:55:53 Professor Fred Watson: Yep.
00:55:53 --> 00:55:55 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, they were developed in the United States
00:55:55 --> 00:55:57 in 1957, uh, by
00:55:57 --> 00:56:00 Harold von Braunhutt, uh, and
00:56:00 --> 00:56:03 sold as eggs intended to be added to water.
00:56:03 --> 00:56:06 Um, and you used to buy them and take them
00:56:06 --> 00:56:08 home, put them in the water and they'd hatch
00:56:08 --> 00:56:10 and you'd have sea monkeys. There you, ah,
00:56:10 --> 00:56:10 are.
00:56:12 --> 00:56:13 There's the solution.
00:56:14 --> 00:56:16 Professor Fred Watson: Now, how long did they last once you put them
00:56:16 --> 00:56:17 in water?
00:56:17 --> 00:56:19 Andrew Dunkley: 5 minutes? Usually they did. No.
00:56:21 --> 00:56:23 Professor Fred Watson: I don't know. I didn't last. Yeah, so it
00:56:23 --> 00:56:26 does. Okay. Yes.
00:56:26 --> 00:56:28 So it doesn't really give you much time to
00:56:28 --> 00:56:31 start a new population of species from planet
00:56:31 --> 00:56:34 Earth. Probably not if you find water on
00:56:34 --> 00:56:37 another world. Yeah, I mean, it's. And of
00:56:37 --> 00:56:38 course there's an ethical side to this as
00:56:38 --> 00:56:41 well. Uh, my answer to. Well,
00:56:41 --> 00:56:44 it's the answer to, um, why
00:56:44 --> 00:56:46 we. Why we sterilise spacecraft going to
00:56:46 --> 00:56:48 Mars. Because we don't want to. To
00:56:48 --> 00:56:51 contaminate Mars with earthly microbes. If
00:56:51 --> 00:56:53 there are microbes there of Martian origin
00:56:53 --> 00:56:56 already, you don't want to intermix them.
00:56:57 --> 00:57:00 Andrew Dunkley: See, Angela, he had to do that. He just had
00:57:00 --> 00:57:02 to do the, the ethical thing.
00:57:03 --> 00:57:05 You and I are on a different page, but. Yeah,
00:57:06 --> 00:57:08 well, coming from Angela.
00:57:08 --> 00:57:09 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:57:10 --> 00:57:13 Andrew Dunkley: But, you know, if, if the Thermi paradox,
00:57:13 --> 00:57:15 Fermi paradox is what it is, then why are
00:57:15 --> 00:57:16 we worried? Anyway?
00:57:16 --> 00:57:18 Professor Fred Watson: It doesn't matter. That's right. It just
00:57:18 --> 00:57:21 doesn't matter. Yes. Can send anything
00:57:21 --> 00:57:23 anywhere. Well, that might be the way it ends
00:57:23 --> 00:57:26 up. If we never find any existence, any
00:57:26 --> 00:57:28 evidence of life somewhere else. But I think
00:57:28 --> 00:57:31 this is a study that's still in its infancy.
00:57:31 --> 00:57:32 Astrobiology has only been around for 30
00:57:32 --> 00:57:35 years or something, so we've still got a long
00:57:35 --> 00:57:36 way to go.
00:57:36 --> 00:57:39 Andrew Dunkley: We have, yes. Um. Uh,
00:57:39 --> 00:57:42 yes, at this stage we're playing it safe.
00:57:43 --> 00:57:45 I think the day will come Angela, where
00:57:45 --> 00:57:47 we'll, we'll load up an arc spacecraft and
00:57:47 --> 00:57:50 we will send them hither and thither
00:57:52 --> 00:57:54 and try to populate another planet.
00:57:56 --> 00:57:58 Who knows? Could happen. Uh, thanks, Angela.
00:57:58 --> 00:58:00 Great question, though. Really enjoyed
00:58:00 --> 00:58:03 mincing that one up. Uh, and,
00:58:03 --> 00:58:05 uh, that brings us to the end of the show,
00:58:05 --> 00:58:06 Fred Watson. Thank you.
00:58:07 --> 00:58:09 Professor Fred Watson: Um, thank you, Andrew. Thanks for your
00:58:09 --> 00:58:11 tolerance and patience and.
00:58:11 --> 00:58:12 Andrew Dunkley: Um, I think it's the other way around,
00:58:12 --> 00:58:13 Fred Watson.
00:58:13 --> 00:58:16 Professor Fred Watson: But anyway, thanks for not dropping
00:58:16 --> 00:58:16 out on me.
00:58:17 --> 00:58:20 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yes, we've had a golden run today.
00:58:20 --> 00:58:23 Yeah, it's been good after the massive full
00:58:23 --> 00:58:25 start, but, uh, yeah, we were all good.
00:58:25 --> 00:58:27 Thanks, Fred Watson. We'll catch you next
00:58:27 --> 00:58:27 time.
00:58:28 --> 00:58:29 Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great. Thanks, Andrew.
00:58:30 --> 00:58:31 Andrew Dunkley: Professor Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer
00:58:31 --> 00:58:34 Large, with us every week, uh, twice, uh, on
00:58:34 --> 00:58:36 Space Nuts. And thanks to Huw in the studio,
00:58:36 --> 00:58:38 who couldn't be with us today because he's
00:58:38 --> 00:58:39 just putting his Dutch nationality
00:58:40 --> 00:58:43 application in. He's sick of being a Kiwi. He
00:58:43 --> 00:58:45 wants to be Dutch because, you know, they're
00:58:45 --> 00:58:48 so cool. Well, I married one, so they must
00:58:48 --> 00:58:50 be. And from me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for
00:58:50 --> 00:58:52 your company. Catch you on the next episode
00:58:52 --> 00:58:53 of Space Nuts.
00:58:53 --> 00:58:53 Professor Fred Watson: Bye. Bye.
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