Cosmic Queries: Black Holes, Superfluids, and the Importance of Space Exploration
In this engaging Q&A episode of Space Nuts, hosts Heidi Campo and Professor Fred Watson tackle intriguing listener questions that delve into the mysteries of black holes, the nature of space-time, and the significance of exploring beyond our planet. With a blend of scientific insight and thoughtful discussion, this episode promises to enlighten and inspire.
Episode Highlights:
- Stages of Matter in Black Holes: Mark from the audience poses a fascinating question about the potential stages of matter reduction leading to a singularity in black holes. Fred explains the current understanding of fundamental particles and the collapse of stars into black holes, highlighting the limits of our knowledge in particle physics.
- Exploring Interstellar Objects: Buddy from Oregon asks about the feasibility of launching satellites to catch up with fast-moving interstellar objects. Fred discusses the challenges of tracking and rendezvousing with such objects and mentions a proposal to utilize the Juno spacecraft to study Comet 3I Atlas as it passes by Jupiter.
- Visualizing Space-Time: Lawrence from London presents a thought-provoking idea about space-time as a superfluid and the limitations of traditional diagrams. Fred elaborates on the concept of superfluidity in the context of space-time and the implications for our understanding of gravity and the universe.
- The Importance of Space Exploration: Dan from the Gold Coast raises a philosophical question about why humanity invests in space exploration when Earth still holds many mysteries. Fred articulates the interconnectedness of understanding our planet and the universe, emphasizing the curiosity that drives scientific discovery and the benefits that arise from space research.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Heidi Campo: Welcome back to another fun episode, a Q
00:00:02 --> 00:00:05 and A episode of space nuts.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 Generic: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
00:00:08 --> 00:00:11 10, 9. Ignition
00:00:11 --> 00:00:14 sequence start. Space nuts. 5, 4, 3.
00:00:14 --> 00:00:17 2. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4,
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 3, 2, 1. Space nuts. Astronauts
00:00:20 --> 00:00:21 report. It feels good.
00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 Heidi Campo: I'm your host, Heidi Campo, filling in for
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 Andrew Dunkley. And joining us is Professor
00:00:27 --> 00:00:29 Fred Watson, astronomer at large.
00:00:30 --> 00:00:31 How are you doing, Fred? That was quite the
00:00:31 --> 00:00:34 smart, uh, little adjustment of your glasses.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:36 It made you look even more smart.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, thank. Thank
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 you, Heidi. You can come again. Um,
00:00:43 --> 00:00:46 Luke, um, it's great to see you again and,
00:00:46 --> 00:00:49 uh, all going well here and lots, um,
00:00:49 --> 00:00:52 of exciting space stuff always to talk about,
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 especially with the questions that we get
00:00:54 --> 00:00:55 from our listeners, which are always
00:00:55 --> 00:00:58 intriguing and often very
00:00:58 --> 00:00:58 insightful.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:00 Heidi Campo: Yeah.
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 And so we do have. We have four questions
00:01:02 --> 00:01:05 today. Um, you know, two.
00:01:05 --> 00:01:07 Two audio questions, two
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 written questions. Um, but we do want to say
00:01:10 --> 00:01:12 if you did not hear our announcement on the
00:01:12 --> 00:01:15 last episode, uh, we'll make that an episode
00:01:15 --> 00:01:16 and make that announcement again. We just
00:01:16 --> 00:01:19 want to say thank you to our listeners. We
00:01:19 --> 00:01:22 were declared, I guess you could say, the
00:01:22 --> 00:01:25 seventh, uh, top 20, top
00:01:25 --> 00:01:27 seven, uh, astronomy podcasts,
00:01:28 --> 00:01:30 wherever you listen to your podcast. So thank
00:01:30 --> 00:01:33 you so much. Fred, do you have anything you
00:01:33 --> 00:01:33 want to add to that?
00:01:34 --> 00:01:37 Professor Fred Watson: Only, um, uh, only that
00:01:37 --> 00:01:40 it's amazing how many people do
00:01:40 --> 00:01:43 listen to our podcasts. Um, I was in a
00:01:43 --> 00:01:46 medical waiting room on Monday, and a
00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 gentleman, I think his name was Stephen, came
00:01:48 --> 00:01:50 up and said, really enjoy the podcast.
00:01:51 --> 00:01:52 So, uh, it's quite nice.
00:01:53 --> 00:01:54 Heidi Campo: You're, like, at poverty.
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 Professor Fred Watson: Well, you must be, too. I bet you find
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 people, uh, and if you don't now, you will.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 You will do. Eventually, people who come up
00:02:02 --> 00:02:05 to you and say, yeah, I know your face, or, I
00:02:05 --> 00:02:06 know your. I know your voice.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:09 Heidi Campo: Well, I think I have to leave my house for
00:02:09 --> 00:02:12 that to happen. I. I'm. I'm too
00:02:12 --> 00:02:15 busy. I'm at the lab or I'm at home, so
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 you don't see me in public unless you see me
00:02:17 --> 00:02:18 at the grocery store.
00:02:20 --> 00:02:22 Professor Fred Watson: There you go. That could be where it happens.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 You never know. So anyway, yeah,
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 it's. Look, it's great to have that,
00:02:27 --> 00:02:30 um, seventh ranking in, uh, the
00:02:30 --> 00:02:33 world's top 50 astronomy
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 podcasts. I'm thrilled to hear it.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 Heidi Campo: Well, I guess that makes our, uh, regular,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:41 um, people who write in their questions
00:02:41 --> 00:02:43 famous too, then, because we do have some
00:02:43 --> 00:02:45 regulars, a few of them today.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 Um, our first question today is from Mark
00:02:49 --> 00:02:52 Painter, and Mark has another
00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 black hole question. And then he has this
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 funny emoji, uh, next to it that he, he
00:02:57 --> 00:02:59 made with text. It's not like a regular
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 emoji. He did that with like special
00:03:01 --> 00:03:04 characters. Very clever. All right, so we
00:03:04 --> 00:03:06 have another, we have another black hole
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 question from Mark. And Mark asks, as a
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 singularity is formed with infinite mass,
00:03:11 --> 00:03:13 there must be a process of reduction,
00:03:13 --> 00:03:16 starting with electron degenerate matter,
00:03:16 --> 00:03:19 then collapsing to a neutron star. Then there
00:03:19 --> 00:03:22 is a quark, quark matter in
00:03:22 --> 00:03:24 massive neutron stars, where quarks are no
00:03:24 --> 00:03:26 longer confined to protons and
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 neutrons. So my question is this. Can there
00:03:29 --> 00:03:32 be more stages of matter reduction to go
00:03:32 --> 00:03:35 through before a singularity or a Planck star
00:03:35 --> 00:03:38 is formed? That is, can
00:03:38 --> 00:03:41 quarks be composed of smaller units of
00:03:41 --> 00:03:43 matter and then these units break down
00:03:43 --> 00:03:46 to, to their constitutes
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 and so on? Could there be many forms of
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 matter we are yet to theorize
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 and at some time possibly
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 discover? Could it be elephants all
00:03:57 --> 00:03:58 the way down?
00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, uh, oh, turtles all the way down. I
00:04:04 --> 00:04:06 think that was the other way of looking at
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 the universe. Um, so it's a great
00:04:09 --> 00:04:12 question. Um, you know, if you think of. So
00:04:12 --> 00:04:14 we envisage the process of a black
00:04:14 --> 00:04:17 hole forming after a supernova explosion.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:20 You've got the uh, star which
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 has run out of hydrogen fuel. Uh,
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 this is one way of black hole formation.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 There's others. Uh, but anyway, it uh, runs
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 out of hydrogen fuel, so there's no longer
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 the outward radiation pressure to support the
00:04:33 --> 00:04:35 mass of the star, and it collapses. Uh, and
00:04:35 --> 00:04:38 if there's enough material there, the
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 collapse doesn't just stop with
00:04:41 --> 00:04:44 uh, as, as Mark points out, electron
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 degenerate matter. That's what we call a
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 white dwarf star. Uh, or it doesn't
00:04:49 --> 00:04:50 stop with that, and it doesn't stop with
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 neutron degenerate matter, which is what we
00:04:53 --> 00:04:56 call a neutron star. It just collapses down
00:04:56 --> 00:04:59 basically to uh, to, to a
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 singularity, to this point of infinite
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 density. Um, and it's not
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 infinite mass, as Mark said, it's
00:05:06 --> 00:05:09 infinite density. But, um, that's not the
00:05:09 --> 00:05:12 point. The point is, um, you know, is there,
00:05:12 --> 00:05:13 uh, as you get to that
00:05:14 --> 00:05:16 singularity, are there
00:05:17 --> 00:05:19 other constituents of matter
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 that the collapse goes through? And
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 my understanding of this is that the answer
00:05:26 --> 00:05:28 is no. Uh, we understand
00:05:29 --> 00:05:32 the very well from particle physics
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 what the, the most fundamental
00:05:35 --> 00:05:37 particles of matter are. Uh,
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 uh, and it's what we call the standard model.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 There are 16 of them, plus something called
00:05:43 --> 00:05:45 the Higgs boson, which gives all, all the
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 others their mass. Um,
00:05:48 --> 00:05:51 um, and ah, that these as far
00:05:51 --> 00:05:53 as we know, are ah, indivisible.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 They are not able to fall
00:05:56 --> 00:05:59 into, into Pieces. They are,
00:06:00 --> 00:06:02 they are the ultimate, you know, the
00:06:02 --> 00:06:04 ultimate building blocks of matter.
00:06:05 --> 00:06:08 Um, there are six quarks, the up, down,
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 charm, strange top and bottom quarks.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:14 Uh, that's the, you know, the,
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 the, the, the quark component. So quarks
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 themselves are, ah, have, have different
00:06:19 --> 00:06:22 varieties. Um, there are six
00:06:22 --> 00:06:25 leptons. The electron muon, tau,
00:06:25 --> 00:06:28 electron neutrino, muon neutrino and tau
00:06:28 --> 00:06:30 neutrino. And then the four fundamental
00:06:30 --> 00:06:32 forces of nature. What are called the gauge
00:06:32 --> 00:06:35 bosons, the gluon which
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 uh, operates the strong atomic force,
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 the photon, which we know is all about
00:06:40 --> 00:06:43 electromagnetic radiation, and the Z and W
00:06:43 --> 00:06:45 bosons, which uh, uh, dictate the weak
00:06:45 --> 00:06:48 nuclear force. So those are what, what
00:06:49 --> 00:06:50 everything is made of. And
00:06:51 --> 00:06:54 uh, the idea of separating them
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 into smaller particles I think is
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 uh, something that uh, the particle
00:07:00 --> 00:07:02 physicists rule out. They're telling us that
00:07:02 --> 00:07:05 that's the way it goes. And so yes, as
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 the collapse takes place, um, these are
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 probably the last things to you know, not
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 to come into existence but to disappear, uh,
00:07:13 --> 00:07:15 down the singularity, if I can put it that
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 way. But it's a great question, uh, Mark, and
00:07:18 --> 00:07:20 got me thinking about particle physics once
00:07:20 --> 00:07:20 again.
00:07:21 --> 00:07:22 Heidi Campo: Excellent.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:26 Well it looks like our next question is from
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 one of those uh, famous regular
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 listeners and it is a audio question,
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 so we are going to play that for you now. You
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 guys can all listen to Buddy from Oregon's
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 question and Fred and I are going to listen
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 to that right now. I'm just letting Fred get
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 that queued up. All right everyone, we're
00:07:42 --> 00:07:44 going to play Buddy's question for you now.
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 Buddy: This is Buddy from Ontario, Oregon again.
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 Hey, I was listening to your latest episode
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 and uh, where you m announced that
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 there's a third object from outside our solar
00:07:55 --> 00:07:58 system passing through a comet I guess. And I
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 know you said there was no point before in
00:08:01 --> 00:08:03 uh, trying to catch these objects because
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 if you get that fast, you can sense something
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 or that object in any direction. What if you
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 were to just land like a spin launch on,
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 on one of those objects with a few
00:08:13 --> 00:08:16 satellites. That way anytime it happen to get
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 close enough to, to uh, something
00:08:18 --> 00:08:20 interesting, we could launch it with a spin
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 launch and possibly maybe use that spin
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 launch to counteract the speed that you're
00:08:24 --> 00:08:26 going at so that you could just kind of
00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 gently place a object in,
00:08:29 --> 00:08:32 in orbit around something. Seems like we
00:08:32 --> 00:08:34 should have eyes in any, every direction we
00:08:34 --> 00:08:36 can send one. But ah, anyways, what do you
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 guys think? Thanks guys. Love this podcast.
00:08:39 --> 00:08:42 Professor Fred Watson: Um, intriguing stuff from Buddy as always.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:47 Um, so just uh, Filling
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50 in a few gaps in that SpinLaunch is indeed a
00:08:50 --> 00:08:52 technique for launching
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 space vehicles. Uh, it's
00:08:56 --> 00:08:58 a company, I think they're called SpinLaunch,
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 uh, and they've built this gigantic device
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 that spins things up to a high level of
00:09:05 --> 00:09:08 rotation and that lets them go. Um,
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 my understanding, although they've got um, I
00:09:11 --> 00:09:13 know there's an announcement recently they've
00:09:13 --> 00:09:15 got a large contract uh, for
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 some possible uh, space vehicles. I don't
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 think they've yet achieved um, a sufficient
00:09:23 --> 00:09:26 velocity as ah, you release it from the spin
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 to get into orbit. That needs to go up to
00:09:28 --> 00:09:31 8km per second and I think they're much
00:09:31 --> 00:09:34 less than that. So um, M from Earth.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:37 Ah, that's not really a viable way
00:09:37 --> 00:09:39 of doing what Buddy's talking about, which is
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 chasing after an interstellar object.
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 Um, if you had one of these machines
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 on board a spacecraft already, that
00:09:48 --> 00:09:50 might be a viable way of doing it because you
00:09:50 --> 00:09:53 only need to give it a smaller impulse. But
00:09:53 --> 00:09:55 you can still do that chemically. You can
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 actually, you've got much more control over
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 uh, what you're doing with chemical rockets.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 And the problem is, uh, as Buddy
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 highlights the objects
00:10:05 --> 00:10:07 like these various,
00:10:07 --> 00:10:10 um, the three interstellar, um,
00:10:10 --> 00:10:12 objects that have passed through the solar
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 system, Oumuamua, uh,
00:10:15 --> 00:10:17 Borisov, Comet Borisov, and the Current 1,
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 uh, 3i Atlas, which is showing all the signs
00:10:20 --> 00:10:23 of being a comet. Um,
00:10:23 --> 00:10:25 that one's passing through the solar system
00:10:25 --> 00:10:26 at the moment. The problem is they're moving
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 so fast. Um, uh, Atlas is
00:10:29 --> 00:10:32 moving at 60 ah, kilometers per second.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 It's a huge speed,
00:10:36 --> 00:10:38 bigger um, than anything that we've ever
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 launched into space before, so we'd never
00:10:41 --> 00:10:43 chase it. Um, and
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 this is the problem from our vantage point on
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 uh, Earth. The idea is that one of these
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 things comes in, you mount a space mission to
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 go and rendezvous with it and check it out,
00:10:53 --> 00:10:55 which would be wonderful. But exactly as
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 Buzzy says, you need eyes in all directions
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 and more especially you need spacecra that
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 are probably already out there, uh, just
00:11:03 --> 00:11:06 waiting to be deployed in particular
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 directions. Now there's an interesting
00:11:08 --> 00:11:10 footnote though to this story because, um,
00:11:11 --> 00:11:13 within the last week we've had a
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 proposal from our good
00:11:16 --> 00:11:19 friend Avi Loeb of the Harvard
00:11:19 --> 00:11:22 Smithsonian, uh, Center for Astrophysics.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 He has made the suggestion that
00:11:25 --> 00:11:28 uh, because uh, the ATLAS
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 comet, uh, currently going through the solar
00:11:31 --> 00:11:34 system from some other solar system, it's
00:11:34 --> 00:11:36 probably older than our solar system because
00:11:36 --> 00:11:39 that passes relatively close to Jupiter. And
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 I think it's either next year or the year
00:11:41 --> 00:11:42 after I Think it's probably next year,
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 um, you could deploy
00:11:46 --> 00:11:49 a uh, spacecraft already in orbit around
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 Jupiter. Uh, and he's thinking of the Juno
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 spacecraft which is uh, already uh,
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 orbiting Jupiter and telling us a lot about
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 that planet. Um, you could change its
00:11:59 --> 00:12:01 orbit. It's in a very, uh, already in a
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 highly elliptical or elongated
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 orbit. Uh, uh, Loeb and his
00:12:07 --> 00:12:08 colleagues suggest that you could change that
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 orbit, uh, make it
00:12:11 --> 00:12:14 elongated enough that you actually
00:12:15 --> 00:12:17 get uh, a closer look at uh, Comet
00:12:17 --> 00:12:20 3I Atlas as it passes by Jupiter.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:23 And that will be fabulous because it would be
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 a way of getting up close and personal
00:12:26 --> 00:12:28 uh, with an interstellar object that might
00:12:28 --> 00:12:31 tell us a lot more about them, uh, about it
00:12:31 --> 00:12:33 than we, we know already. So um,
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 so I think this is an exciting area that
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 Buddy's highlighted. Uh, the idea of
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 rendezvousing with uh, extraterrestrial
00:12:42 --> 00:12:44 or extrasolar, um,
00:12:44 --> 00:12:46 uh, extra
00:12:46 --> 00:12:49 extrasolar asteroids or comets,
00:12:50 --> 00:12:52 rendezvousing them with them, uh, with
00:12:52 --> 00:12:54 whatever we have at our disposal. And if
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 we've got Juno at our disposal already
00:12:57 --> 00:12:59 hanging around in the vicinity of Jupiter,
00:13:00 --> 00:13:02 maybe it will be a good thing to do to bring
00:13:02 --> 00:13:04 the mission to an end by rendezvousing with
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 Comet 3i Atlas. So I like that
00:13:08 --> 00:13:08 question.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:10 Heidi Campo: A lot of tongue twisters in this field.
00:13:12 --> 00:13:13 Professor Fred Watson: It's true.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:17 Andrew Dunkley: Hi everyone. Let's take a moment to talk
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00:15:02 --> 00:15:03 Generic: Roger in your labs right here.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04 Professor Fred Watson: Also space nuts.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:07 Heidi Campo: Our next question starts, uh, off with a
00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 tongue twister. This is Lawrence from London
00:15:10 --> 00:15:13 says hi agents Lawrence from London. Lawrence
00:15:13 --> 00:15:16 from London here. I will jump straight to the
00:15:16 --> 00:15:18 point. Has there ever been any sort of
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 proposal of space time being a super
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 fluid? And if so, how did that play out?
00:15:24 --> 00:15:27 One of my biggest grievances are those space
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 time diagrams that show a single plane with
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 the planet on top causing curvature
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 on said plane. For me it feels like
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 it skews the four dimensional reality that
00:15:38 --> 00:15:41 truly exists as there is not just a single
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 plane for everything to rest on. If we could
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 find ways to visualize this more accurately,
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 I feel like we would appeal to the
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 fluid more often to describe the behavior
00:15:52 --> 00:15:55 of space time as it would allow for these
00:15:55 --> 00:15:57 extra dimensions rather than the typical two
00:15:57 --> 00:16:00 dimensional spacetime diagrams. As for
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 time, perhaps it could be understood
00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 to be the flow rate of the superfluid.
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08 As for the elasticity and the structural
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 integrity we see of space time, maybe
00:16:11 --> 00:16:14 quantized vortices. As for
00:16:14 --> 00:16:17 gravity, I have no idea. It is a good thing
00:16:17 --> 00:16:19 that I can ask this question to an
00:16:19 --> 00:16:22 astrophysicist. Many thanks gents. Looking
00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 forward to hearing your response.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:27 I'm interested too. That was quite an
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 interesting, um, visual.
00:16:31 --> 00:16:34 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. And his point's well
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 made. Um, thanks. Thanks Lawrence for this.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 Your point's well made that we have no way of
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 depicting space time being distorted by
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 matter, which is what happens other than,
00:16:45 --> 00:16:47 you know, this picture that we all are
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 familiar with of a planet sitting on a
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 trampoline, uh, with the
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 trampoline map being distorted by the, by the
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 gravity of the planet. That's because we have
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 to reduce it to two dimensions. It's because,
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 because it's the only way we can really
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 envisage it. But
00:17:02 --> 00:17:05 um, the notion underlying
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 uh, Lawrence's question is
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 that, uh, he's sort of in a
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 sense ahead of the game. And that is because,
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 well, uh, he talks about superfluids. A
00:17:17 --> 00:17:19 superfluid is a fluid with zero
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22 viscosity and that is what
00:17:22 --> 00:17:25 spacetime is. Uh, it is already
00:17:25 --> 00:17:28 effectively a superfluid. Uh, our
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 Understanding of space time comes from
00:17:31 --> 00:17:34 general relativity, Einstein's general theory
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 of relativity. And he was,
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 he understood the idea that
00:17:40 --> 00:17:43 matter would distort
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 space, uh,
00:17:46 --> 00:17:48 because he was basically trying to understand
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50 gravity. Uh, and he
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 basically what he did was propose that
00:17:55 --> 00:17:58 gravity, so that gravity was the way he was
00:17:58 --> 00:18:01 approaching this. Gravity is the same as
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 acceleration. Um, so if
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 you were in a spacecraft, uh, with
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 no windows, uh, and
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 somebody lit the fuse and put the
00:18:12 --> 00:18:14 rocket underneath the spacecraft and sent it
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 accelerating on its way from within that
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 spacecraft, you would not know whether you're
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 feeling the effect of the acceleration or the
00:18:22 --> 00:18:24 pull of gravity. They are indistinguishable.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 It's something that technically is
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 known by the equivalence principle, which
00:18:30 --> 00:18:32 holds up incredibly strongly.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:35 So what you're saying is gravity and
00:18:35 --> 00:18:37 acceleration are effectively the same thing.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 That allowed Einstein to build a
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 geometrical model of how gravity works.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:45 And that's what led to our
00:18:45 --> 00:18:47 understanding of space time. Something that
00:18:47 --> 00:18:49 is distorted by the presence of matter.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:52 Uh, it's got a uh,
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55 gobbledygook description, the
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 mathematical uh, description
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 or the mathematical structure if you
00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 like, that we see a
00:19:03 --> 00:19:06 space time, um, it is based
00:19:06 --> 00:19:08 on geometry developed by
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 a uh, German mathematician who's can't
00:19:12 --> 00:19:13 remember his first name. His second name was
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 Riemann. Riemann in the
00:19:16 --> 00:19:19 1850s proposed the idea
00:19:19 --> 00:19:21 of spaces that could be
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 distorted by things within them.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:27 And that turns out that that's exactly what
00:19:27 --> 00:19:30 space time is. Uh, in the
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33 relativistic view it's something a
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 mathematical construct that we call a
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 Riemannian manifold. And it is a
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 superfluid. It basically behaves just like a
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 superfluid. Uh, and uh, you
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 know, the quantized vortices that Lawrence
00:19:46 --> 00:19:49 mentions, that puts a different slant
00:19:49 --> 00:19:51 on it because you're suddenly into
00:19:51 --> 00:19:54 um, uh, um, quantum ah,
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 theory, uh, rather than
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 relativity theory. So we'll just leave that
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 to one side. But as far as relativity is
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 concerned, space is a superfluid. And the way
00:20:06 --> 00:20:08 gravity emerges. Lawrence says, as for
00:20:08 --> 00:20:10 gravity, I have no idea. It's a good thing I
00:20:10 --> 00:20:12 can ask this question to an astrophysicist.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:14 Well, I'm glad you did. Uh, because grav,
00:20:14 --> 00:20:16 gravity is the acceleration. It's the
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 distortion of space causing
00:20:19 --> 00:20:22 us to feel an acceleration which we see as
00:20:22 --> 00:20:25 gravity. I hope that answers Lawrence's
00:20:25 --> 00:20:26 question.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:28 Heidi Campo: That was fantastic.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:33 Generic: Three, two, one.
00:20:34 --> 00:20:35 Heidi Campo: Space nuts.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:38 Our very last question of this episode
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 is from Dan,
00:20:41 --> 00:20:44 um, on the Gold coast. And this is also an
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 audio question. So I'm going to give Fred
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 just a second to cue that up and we are going
00:20:49 --> 00:20:50 to play that for you now.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 Martin Berman Gorvine: Hey, guys. Dan here from the Gold Coast.
00:20:53 --> 00:20:54 Quick, um, question. Thought it might be a
00:20:54 --> 00:20:57 bit different for you. Got a friend who a
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 couple of years ago we were discussing space
00:21:00 --> 00:21:02 exploration, that kind of stuff, and his view
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 was that he'd understand why the human race
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 puts, uh, time into exploring space
00:21:08 --> 00:21:10 when we still don't quite understand Earth.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 And I couldn't, you know, I couldn't put into
00:21:13 --> 00:21:16 words myself why it's so important, which I
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 understand it is. I was hoping you could put
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 into your own words why is it so important
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 that we also put time into, uh,
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 exploring space? Thanks for that. Um,
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 also, Heidi, with your sci fi brain,
00:21:30 --> 00:21:32 I'm wondering, have you read Project Hail
00:21:32 --> 00:21:35 Mary? Do you love it like I do? And are you
00:21:35 --> 00:21:37 excited for the movie? All right, cheers.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:38 Bye.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 Heidi Campo: Oh my goodness. I'm so excited that you
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 brought up Project Hail Mary. Um, that is
00:21:45 --> 00:21:47 next on my list. Um, it
00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 is next on my list. I have read other books
00:21:49 --> 00:21:52 from that author and I'm very excited to
00:21:52 --> 00:21:55 read it, but I have not yet. Um, and I
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 feel a little bit like a hypocrite because
00:21:58 --> 00:22:01 I pride myself on often reading the
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 books before the movies. But now I feel like
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 a hipster because I'm reading it before the
00:22:05 --> 00:22:06 movie comes out.
00:22:09 --> 00:22:11 Professor Fred Watson: That's good. No, that's. You're ahead of the
00:22:11 --> 00:22:14 game, Heidi. That's the great thing. Um, when
00:22:14 --> 00:22:16 you've read it, I'd love to hear what it's
00:22:16 --> 00:22:16 about.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:18 Heidi Campo: Facebook.
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. Yep, sounds great.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 Very quickly, uh, why do we
00:22:27 --> 00:22:30 explore space? Why explore the universe, uh,
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 when there's so much on Earth that's left to
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 understand? Uh, and I guess we. One way
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39 of. There's many, many, many reasons why. And
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 it's principally governments that support the
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 exploration of space, certainly by
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 astronomers, and um, to some extent the
00:22:47 --> 00:22:49 exploration of space by space probes as well.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:51 Although there's a, certainly, uh, a
00:22:52 --> 00:22:54 commercial sector moving into that, uh,
00:22:54 --> 00:22:56 trying to send spacecraft to the moon and
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58 things of that sort. But why do we do it? Um,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 well, we wouldn't be able to understand Earth
00:23:00 --> 00:23:02 fully if we didn't know about space.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:06 Um, so, uh, the two are
00:23:06 --> 00:23:08 really part and parcel of the same thing.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 It's trying to understand our environment on
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 the biggest possible scale.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:16 Uh, and you know, uh, if you
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 didn't, um, understand how planets form,
00:23:20 --> 00:23:23 then it wouldn't really tell you, um, how the
00:23:23 --> 00:23:25 Earth has formed. Uh, and that's an important
00:23:25 --> 00:23:28 part of the Earth's history. So that's.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:31 And of course the other thing is that we as a
00:23:31 --> 00:23:34 species are curious we want to know about
00:23:34 --> 00:23:35 our environment in space, we want to know
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 about the origin of space, we want to know
00:23:37 --> 00:23:39 about where everything came from. It's
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 fundamental science that may not have an
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 immediate commercial benefit, but it
00:23:45 --> 00:23:48 tells us about ourselves, uh,
00:23:48 --> 00:23:49 and um,
00:23:51 --> 00:23:54 satisfies our uh, curiosity,
00:23:54 --> 00:23:57 our yearning to understand uh,
00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 the scale of space and
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 how it all works. That's the, I
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05 guess the fundamental reason for doing it.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 But there are many other reasons.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 One uh, reason why governments invest in
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13 space and astronomy is to
00:24:13 --> 00:24:15 inspire upcoming generations
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 because we know that there's nothing like
00:24:19 --> 00:24:22 black holes or killer asteroids or whatever
00:24:22 --> 00:24:25 for getting kids switched on to science.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:27 And it's a great way. Even if they don't
00:24:27 --> 00:24:30 become astronomers or space scientists, they
00:24:30 --> 00:24:31 at least understand the scientific methods.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:34 They understand the evidence based method
00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 that is fundamental to all signs. Um, and
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 so that's another reason we've got of course
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 spin offs, we've got all kinds of uh,
00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 things. There are three different things
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 inside this mobile phone that I'm holding up
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 for those of you who don't have, don't have
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 YouTube Music version of this podcast. Uh,
00:24:54 --> 00:24:57 three things of that that came from astronomy
00:24:57 --> 00:25:00 and understanding physics. Uh, you know
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 the GPS system relies on general
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04 relativity which was test by
00:25:04 --> 00:25:07 astronomical observations. The camera in it
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 was essentially um,
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 uh, evolved from cameras that were
00:25:13 --> 00:25:15 developed from uh,
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 astronomical cameras that we were bringing
00:25:18 --> 00:25:21 to fruition in the 1980s. These
00:25:21 --> 00:25:24 silicon devices that let us see very faint
00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 light levels and WI fi, the WI fi, uh,
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 that um, lets us use our phones actually
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 started off in the head of an astrophysicist
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 working in radio astronomy. How do you send
00:25:35 --> 00:25:37 signals backwards and forwards in your
00:25:37 --> 00:25:39 laboratories? And he was an Australian. Well
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41 he still is. His name is John o' Sullivan and
00:25:41 --> 00:25:43 I've had a number of
00:25:44 --> 00:25:47 pleasant chats with him over the years. Uh,
00:25:47 --> 00:25:49 very well known astrophysicist. So um,
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 lots of reasons why we do space, uh,
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 not just because we are curious
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 about it, but that's the main
00:25:58 --> 00:25:59 underlying reason.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 Heidi Campo: Fred, what got you interested in space?
00:26:04 --> 00:26:05 Why did you choose this as a career?
00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, look, in
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 a sense, um, I'm a product of exactly what
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 I've just been talking about. Um,
00:26:15 --> 00:26:17 ah, although things were a little bit
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 different when I was a youngster because I
00:26:20 --> 00:26:23 was at school in the late 1950s, early 1960s
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 at the dawn of the space age. Uh, so
00:26:26 --> 00:26:28 it was in our faces all the time. Uh,
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 and plus the fact that there had
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 recently been a world war and a lot of people
00:26:34 --> 00:26:35 thought there was going to be another one
00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 which will be fought on the grounds of
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 Science. So science was
00:26:39 --> 00:26:42 absolutely hammered into us. Um, the school
00:26:42 --> 00:26:45 I was at had four streams.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:47 Uh, three of them were science streams, one
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 was an art stream. And that is not the case
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 now. Um, so, um, in a sense
00:26:53 --> 00:26:55 I was a product of my time. But
00:26:56 --> 00:26:58 I was inspired, um, by,
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 uh, in fact, an astronomer who. I was only
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 thinking about him this morning. Sadly now no
00:27:04 --> 00:27:06 longer with us, a gentleman by the name of
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 Patrick Moore, who, uh, was
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12 the most famous astronomer in Britain for
00:27:13 --> 00:27:16 40, maybe even 50 years. He
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18 had a TV program which, uh, started in
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 1957. It's still running. He's not in
00:27:21 --> 00:27:23 Britain. Does it anymore. Uh, the sky at
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 night. So the sky at night was one of the
00:27:26 --> 00:27:28 things that inspired me and got me interested
00:27:28 --> 00:27:31 in space. And I never really grew up. I
00:27:31 --> 00:27:33 just, um, carried on being interested and
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 have been all my life. So.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 Heidi Campo: So I love that. That's a really fun story.
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. You know, I, I just
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45 feel very fortunate to have had
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 a job throughout my life that I probably
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 would have done even if they hadn't paid me
00:27:51 --> 00:27:53 for it because it was my passion.
00:27:54 --> 00:27:56 Not sure how I would have lived had that been
00:27:56 --> 00:27:57 the case. But anyway.
00:27:57 --> 00:27:58 Heidi Campo: That's wonderful.
00:27:58 --> 00:27:59 Professor Fred Watson: It's been great.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 Heidi Campo: Well, on, um, that positive note, um, keep,
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 keep dreaming, everyone. Keep looking at the
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06 stars and keep sending us your questions.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:09 Especially if you're one of our female
00:28:09 --> 00:28:11 listeners. I have been here all summer and we
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13 have not gotten one question from the ladies.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:16 So if you're a female listener and you
00:28:16 --> 00:28:19 have been wondering if your question's good
00:28:19 --> 00:28:21 enough. It's good enough. Just send it in.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:24 We, um, love our fellas, but if there are, I
00:28:24 --> 00:28:26 mean, we've got to have female listeners.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:28 This can't be 100% guys who are interested in
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 space. Uh, so send in your questions. We
00:28:31 --> 00:28:34 want to hear from you. Fred, do you have any
00:28:34 --> 00:28:35 closing remarks?
00:28:35 --> 00:28:38 Professor Fred Watson: No, just to, to say, uh, absolutely, I agree
00:28:38 --> 00:28:40 with that. We do know we've, we've got some
00:28:40 --> 00:28:42 female listeners. We've occasionally had
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 questions in the past. We have, uh,
00:28:45 --> 00:28:48 one, uh, person who is a pilot.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:50 She flies across the Atlantic and looks at
00:28:50 --> 00:28:53 the stars and sends us notes, uh, about what
00:28:53 --> 00:28:53 she see.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55 Heidi Campo: That's such a beautiful picture.
00:28:56 --> 00:28:59 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, isn't it great? And so, uh, yeah, I
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 agree we should shout out to our female space
00:29:02 --> 00:29:04 nuts listeners. Get your questions in. We'd
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 love to hear from you all.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08 Heidi Campo: Ah, righty then. Well, you heard it from the
00:29:08 --> 00:29:11 man himself. Um, and you probably only
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 maybe, maybe only a few more weeks with me.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:15 So send in your questions. Um, if you have
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 any sci fi related questions about favorite
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 sci fi books and whatnot. Because Andrew is
00:29:21 --> 00:29:23 going to be back soon. We're not quite sure
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 when, but we've got a few more weeks left of
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28 me, and then, um, Andrew will be back as your
00:29:28 --> 00:29:31 host. But till then, you're stuck with me and
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 I thank you all for listening. Till next
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 time. See you later.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:38 Generic: You've been listening to the Space Nuts
00:29:38 --> 00:29:41 podcast, available
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