Episode Highlights:
- International Space Station Milestone: Andrew and Fred Watson celebrate the ISS's 25 years of human presence in space and discuss its significance as a model of international cooperation among space agencies, including NASA, ESA, Roscosmos, JAXA, and the Canadian Space Agency.
- The Future of the ISS: The hosts explore the impending decommissioning of the ISS and the possibilities for commercial space stations that could take its place, highlighting NASA's partnerships with private companies to ensure ongoing human presence in low Earth orbit.
- Lunar Mining Potential: The conversation shifts to the intriguing idea of mining the moon's craters for valuable resources, including precious metals and water. Andrew and Fred Watson examine the feasibility and ethical implications of such endeavours in the context of space exploration.
- 3D Printed Rocket Motors: Andrew introduces a groundbreaking Australian project involving the creation of 3D printed rocket motors made from two different metals. The hosts discuss the potential applications of this technology for future space missions and the role of Australian innovation in the global space industry.
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00:00:00 --> 00:00:02 Andrew Dunkley: Hi there. Thanks for joining us. This is
00:00:02 --> 00:00:04 Space Nuts, where we talk astronomy, space
00:00:04 --> 00:00:07 science and whatever else turns up. Sometimes
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 we talk about dogs and cats. Uh,
00:00:10 --> 00:00:12 uh, coming up on the programme today we
00:00:12 --> 00:00:15 are going to look at the upcoming
00:00:15 --> 00:00:17 anniversary of the International Space
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 Station and other uh, space
00:00:20 --> 00:00:22 stations that are in low Earth orbit.
00:00:22 --> 00:00:24 Because, um, come November,
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 25 years of continuous occupation
00:00:27 --> 00:00:30 of space by human humans. That
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 is rather wonderful in terms
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 of an achievement. We'll uh, also talk about
00:00:35 --> 00:00:38 the future of the ISS because it's not going
00:00:38 --> 00:00:41 to be around for that much longer. Um,
00:00:41 --> 00:00:42 we're also going to look at the moon because
00:00:42 --> 00:00:45 it might have valuable craters that
00:00:45 --> 00:00:48 could be worth mining. I don't know how
00:00:48 --> 00:00:49 Fred Watson feels about digging around on the
00:00:49 --> 00:00:51 moon, but we will ask him. And
00:00:52 --> 00:00:54 3D printed rocket motors,
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 yes, they are a thing or things. Uh,
00:00:57 --> 00:01:00 we'll talk about all of that on this episode
00:01:00 --> 00:01:02 of space nuts. 15 seconds.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 Guidance is internal.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 Professor Fred Watson: 10, 9. Ignition
00:01:07 --> 00:01:09 sequence start. Uh, space Nuts.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:15 Space dust.
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 Andrew Dunkley: Astronauts report it feels good.
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 And we once again welcome his royal self,
00:01:21 --> 00:01:23 Professor Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer at
00:01:23 --> 00:01:24 large. Hello, friend.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 Professor Fred Watson: Thank you, Andrew. Thank you. Um,
00:01:27 --> 00:01:30 um. Uh. I was at an event in rural
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 Victoria last week and somebody uh, the
00:01:32 --> 00:01:35 organiser described me as astronomy
00:01:35 --> 00:01:37 royalty. So I thought well I'll take that.
00:01:38 --> 00:01:41 Andrew Dunkley: That's nice. Yes, I didn't know that.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 Professor Fred Watson: It's not true.
00:01:42 --> 00:01:44 Andrew Dunkley: But there's more than one person that thinks
00:01:44 --> 00:01:45 that. Fred Watson.
00:01:45 --> 00:01:48 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, well, that's nice too. Anyway,
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 it was um. Yeah. Um, so, uh, I'm not his
00:01:51 --> 00:01:53 Royal Highness though I'm basically. And uh,
00:01:53 --> 00:01:56 that's how I'll stay probably for the.
00:01:56 --> 00:01:57 Andrew Dunkley: Didn't they make a movie called King
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 Fred Watson or something like that? Yeah,
00:02:00 --> 00:02:02 yeah, Some time m ago.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:04 Professor Fred Watson: Fred's a good name. It's um, uh, in
00:02:05 --> 00:02:08 high energy physics which kind of impacts
00:02:08 --> 00:02:11 on astronomy. It's an acronym uh, for
00:02:11 --> 00:02:13 fast rise exponential decay.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:16 Fast rise exponentially K. It's um.
00:02:17 --> 00:02:19 I'm not sure whether that describes me or
00:02:19 --> 00:02:21 not, but it's an acronym.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 Andrew Dunkley: It sounds more like Live fast, die young.
00:02:24 --> 00:02:25 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's a booty.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:26 Andrew Dunkley: Not you.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:29 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. Live slow. Last
00:02:29 --> 00:02:30 a long time. That's the idea.
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 Andrew Dunkley: Now you mentioned uh, before we started that
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 there was a uh, conference
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 in Is it city at the moment.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:42 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. What's that about? Yes, that's. This is
00:02:42 --> 00:02:43 not the one I was at last week. The one I was
00:02:43 --> 00:02:46 at last week was uh, an astronomy education
00:02:46 --> 00:02:48 conference in Melbourne. And followed up by,
00:02:49 --> 00:02:51 and a shout out to them, the Sea Lake Astro
00:02:51 --> 00:02:53 Fest. It's the Royal, uh, the uh,
00:02:55 --> 00:02:58 uh, Astronomical Society of Victoria's annual
00:02:58 --> 00:03:01 dark sky event. And Sea Lake is a rural
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 town, a small rural town, northern Victoria,
00:03:04 --> 00:03:06 two hours drive south of Mildura. And I spent
00:03:06 --> 00:03:08 a glorious weekend there uh, with a lot of
00:03:08 --> 00:03:10 uh, like minded people talking about
00:03:10 --> 00:03:12 astronomy in space. What's on this week
00:03:12 --> 00:03:14 though I haven't been invited to
00:03:15 --> 00:03:18 so I can't be that much astronomer. Astronomy
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 royalty. Um, it's the International
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 Astronautical Congress and this um,
00:03:23 --> 00:03:26 is a major international meeting. I think
00:03:26 --> 00:03:27 there are 11 delegates,
00:03:29 --> 00:03:31 um, and it's on at the convention uh, centre
00:03:32 --> 00:03:34 here in Sydney. And uh, a lot of really
00:03:34 --> 00:03:37 fascinating stuff uh, being discussed and
00:03:37 --> 00:03:39 described. Some extraordinary technology
00:03:40 --> 00:03:43 turning up in there. Um, um, it's a
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 showcase for the world of astronautics.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:48 Um, uh, but you know it's very much space
00:03:49 --> 00:03:51 orientated. But it was that in mind that I
00:03:51 --> 00:03:52 chose the three topics that we're going to
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 talk about today because I thought they all,
00:03:54 --> 00:03:56 all relate to astronautics and space flight.
00:03:56 --> 00:03:58 Andrew Dunkley: 11 delegates did you say?
00:03:58 --> 00:03:59 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, yeah.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:01 Andrew Dunkley: That's a lot of, it's a lot of plastic
00:04:01 --> 00:04:01 chairs.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:03 Professor Fred Watson: It is, yeah.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:05 Andrew Dunkley: IKEA must be thrilled.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, probably, yeah.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:10 Sorry, go on.
00:04:10 --> 00:04:11 Andrew Dunkley: I was going to say you got to wonder about
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 organising something like that. I mean a
00:04:13 --> 00:04:15 logistics on a loan.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 Professor Fred Watson: Now I used to, when I was a sort of, you
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 know, proper productive astronomer doing real
00:04:20 --> 00:04:23 work, uh, rather than just talking to you,
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 um, I used to go to conferences
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32 uh, organised by an organisation called
00:04:32 --> 00:04:35 spie which was originally, what was
00:04:35 --> 00:04:37 it, the Society of Photo Optical
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 Instrumentation Engineers I think. But they
00:04:40 --> 00:04:42 in the end just called themselves spie.
00:04:43 --> 00:04:46 Uh, so I used to build um, astronomical
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 instruments mostly involving fibre optics and
00:04:48 --> 00:04:50 things of that sort back in the day which
00:04:50 --> 00:04:52 eventually turned out to be quite productive.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:54 And we did some great surveys with some of
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 them. But uh, the annual conferences
00:04:56 --> 00:04:59 for instrumentation people were these SBIE
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 conferences. And uh, I think the last one I
00:05:01 --> 00:05:03 went to, which was probably 20 years ago,
00:05:03 --> 00:05:06 already had more than 4 delegates and it
00:05:06 --> 00:05:09 felt like you didn't really know anybody.
00:05:09 --> 00:05:11 The early ones you kind of knew most of the
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 people there, but with 4 you didn't
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 know anybody. And the other thing about big
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 conferences that always I struggle with is
00:05:20 --> 00:05:22 the parallel sessions. So you've often got
00:05:22 --> 00:05:25 three streams of sessions running and if you
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 want to catch the papers and presentations
00:05:27 --> 00:05:29 you've got to be ducking in and out of doors
00:05:29 --> 00:05:30 and standing in the back of rooms and things
00:05:30 --> 00:05:33 like that. And I'm sure the IAC will uh, be
00:05:33 --> 00:05:36 like that this week as well. Uh, it's not my
00:05:36 --> 00:05:37 Idea of a party.
00:05:37 --> 00:05:38 Andrew Dunkley: I can imagine.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:39 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 Andrew Dunkley: Anyway, I'm sure it will go well.
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 Uh, speaking of space and
00:05:44 --> 00:05:47 things in space, uh, we are looking at
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 in November 25 years of continuous
00:05:50 --> 00:05:53 occupation of space by humans.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:56 And we're talking about the ISS amongst other
00:05:56 --> 00:05:57 things. But there's more than one space
00:05:57 --> 00:06:00 station up there now, so um, it
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 will continue even when the ISS is
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 decommissioned in a few years time. That's an
00:06:05 --> 00:06:07 extraordinary achievement.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10 Professor Fred Watson: Isn't it just? Yeah. 25 years
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 of constant, of continuous occupation in
00:06:12 --> 00:06:15 space. It tells you that um, we are
00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 a world or a species that's able to
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 face the challenge of getting off the Earth
00:06:21 --> 00:06:23 and getting off our home planet and into
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 space. Even though. Yes, for those 25 years,
00:06:26 --> 00:06:28 uh, what's the ISS done? It's gone around in
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 circles, but the fact that it's up there,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 um, uh, it's about a height of 400
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 kilometres. It's still within the Earth's
00:06:37 --> 00:06:39 uh, protective shield magnetically so that
00:06:39 --> 00:06:42 we're within the radiation belts. Um,
00:06:42 --> 00:06:45 but m. You know, it's still the vacuum of
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 space. It's a very
00:06:48 --> 00:06:51 challenging environment and yeah, we've made
00:06:51 --> 00:06:54 it work. Uh, and it's once again I think um,
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 one of the, perhaps the best things about uh,
00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 the iss, particularly in this day and age, is
00:07:00 --> 00:07:02 just a model of international cooperation.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:06 Yeah. Still, you know those major players
00:07:06 --> 00:07:09 of uh, European Space Agency,
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 NASA, Roscosmos, the Russian Space Agency
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14 and jaxa. Ah, the Japanese Space Agency, the
00:07:14 --> 00:07:16 Canadian Space Agency, they're the main
00:07:16 --> 00:07:19 players in the ISS and they're working
00:07:19 --> 00:07:22 together and um, you know, in the environment
00:07:22 --> 00:07:24 that we're in now. That's a shining example
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 that um, I hope continues beyond the end
00:07:27 --> 00:07:29 of the iss. Yes.
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 Andrew Dunkley: And uh, Australia has been involved as well.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 Um, we've had uh, ah, a
00:07:35 --> 00:07:38 couple of people up there I think. Um, and
00:07:38 --> 00:07:41 um, just as I was thinking of their names, it
00:07:41 --> 00:07:41 all drops out.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:44 Professor Fred Watson: Yes they do. Um, so Andy Thomas was
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 one of Australian astronauts. Uh, I think he
00:07:48 --> 00:07:49 flew on the space station. He's best known
00:07:49 --> 00:07:51 for his missions to the Mia,
00:07:52 --> 00:07:54 uh space station which was a kind of
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 precursor. And uh, Paul
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 Scully Power, um, another um,
00:08:00 --> 00:08:03 uh, uh, Australian grown
00:08:03 --> 00:08:06 but NASA employed astronaut. Uh,
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 Paul's a character and a half. I've um, met
00:08:09 --> 00:08:12 him a few times, hung out with him once. I'm
00:08:12 --> 00:08:14 sure he led me up to some bar, uh,
00:08:15 --> 00:08:17 somewhere that I never thought we'd get away
00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 from. Uh, he's a great guy. Um, but
00:08:20 --> 00:08:21 um, of course we now have Catherine, uh,
00:08:22 --> 00:08:24 Bennell Pegg, who is um, uh Also
00:08:24 --> 00:08:27 selected for the astronaut corps. She
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 is an Australian astronaut with a. We uh,
00:08:30 --> 00:08:33 all hope she'll fly uh, quite soon.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:36 She's very enthusiastic, a ah, fantastic
00:08:36 --> 00:08:38 mentor for young uh, kids, especially
00:08:39 --> 00:08:41 young girls, you know, doing great work
00:08:41 --> 00:08:44 in, in stem. So uh, yes, we've, we've played
00:08:44 --> 00:08:46 a part. But you're right, the um,
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 it's, it's not the only thing up there of
00:08:49 --> 00:08:52 course, the Tianwen, ah, it's
00:08:52 --> 00:08:54 Tiangong isn't it? I should get the name
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 right. Space uh, station. The um,
00:08:58 --> 00:09:01 the Chinese one space station, uh, which has
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 uh, been in orbit actually for probably three
00:09:04 --> 00:09:05 or four years now I think.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:08 And uh, that's
00:09:09 --> 00:09:10 uh,
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 a growing enterprise in China.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:17 It is Tiangong. Uh, there's
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 Tianwen's uh, spacecraft that's actually
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 going to rendezvous with a near Earth
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 asteroid not very far down the track. So I've
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 got all these names in my head, pick the
00:09:26 --> 00:09:29 wrong ones. Uh, um, it's about
00:09:29 --> 00:09:32 the same height, uh, 400 kilometres above the
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 Earth's surface. Crew of three
00:09:35 --> 00:09:37 compared with the crew of the International
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 Space Station which is normally um, six
00:09:40 --> 00:09:42 people but uh, there was one stage this year
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 when it was up to 11, ah, with people kind
00:09:45 --> 00:09:48 of camping around different bits of the
00:09:48 --> 00:09:50 different bits of the space station, finding
00:09:50 --> 00:09:52 somewhere to sleep. Uh, but it's big enough
00:09:52 --> 00:09:54 that you can do that and still have a bit of
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 privacy about it. Yes. So um, yeah,
00:09:57 --> 00:09:59 so uh, it's been a, you know, it has been a
00:09:59 --> 00:10:02 fantastic resource. Uh, a lot of people
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 in the early days complain, you know, what's
00:10:04 --> 00:10:06 it doing? It's just going around in circles.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 It's conducted more than 4 experiments.
00:10:09 --> 00:10:09 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, and for more than 4,
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 4 research publications uh,
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 which have come about, uh, many of which are
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 ah, about quite earthy things, you know, how,
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 uh, medical issues, uh, things that we might
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 learn from, uh, our occupation of space that
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 will help to improve um, our
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 life down on Earth. Um,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 yeah, uh, it's been terrific. So
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 the end of the road will come uh, in five
00:10:38 --> 00:10:41 years time, uh, not sure what time of year
00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 but 2030, uh, the plan is to deorbit
00:10:44 --> 00:10:47 it uh, and to send it down
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 into that um, sort of graveyard region
00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 in the Pacific Ocean. It's that point that's
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 the furthest away from land of any part of
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 the ocean, uh, on the whole of the planet.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:00 And there's a lot of space hardware on the
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 floor of the ocean there and it's going to
00:11:02 --> 00:11:03 include the International Space Station.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:04 Yeah.
00:11:04 --> 00:11:07 Andrew Dunkley: Okay. So they probably won't recover
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 it uh, fairly deep there I
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 imagine, but uh, uh, they're
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 bringing it back down. But that won't end the
00:11:15 --> 00:11:17 presence of humans in orbit because the
00:11:17 --> 00:11:19 Chinese will be there and NASA is working
00:11:19 --> 00:11:22 with private companies to put
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24 more hardware in low earth orbit.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:28 Professor Fred Watson: That's correct, yes. So um,
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 commercial partners is the
00:11:31 --> 00:11:33 watchword as we've seen from ferrying
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 astronauts up and down to the space station.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:38 The way we've got um, both uh, Blue
00:11:38 --> 00:11:40 Origin and SpaceX as major players in the
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 Artemis programme. So all of that
00:11:44 --> 00:11:47 uh, is in place. Um, I think
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 uh, there's something, yeah something called
00:11:50 --> 00:11:52 the Phase two partnership, um
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 uh, which is proposals for commercial
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 space stations and that NASA uh
00:11:59 --> 00:12:01 apparently issued um, their draught
00:12:01 --> 00:12:03 announcement of this phase two partnership
00:12:03 --> 00:12:06 this month, uh September 2025.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:09 So uh, that will allow
00:12:10 --> 00:12:11 um, companies to
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 uh, get funding to
00:12:15 --> 00:12:17 do critical design reviews,
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 uh, maybe demonstrators. Uh, one
00:12:21 --> 00:12:23 of the demonstrators that we're hearing about
00:12:23 --> 00:12:25 is the idea of a four person space
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 station, uh, with a lifetime of at
00:12:28 --> 00:12:31 least 30 days. Um, you know, so it
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 is um, it's an ongoing business and
00:12:35 --> 00:12:37 I think you and I are going to have a great
00:12:37 --> 00:12:39 time in the next five years because we'll
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 start to see what is coming up uh,
00:12:42 --> 00:12:44 as being the replacement for the
00:12:44 --> 00:12:45 International Space Station. It could even be
00:12:45 --> 00:12:47 an inflatable module.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, I know they were experimenting with that.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:50 Professor Fred Watson: They were.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:52 Andrew Dunkley: That was m. Yeah.
00:12:52 --> 00:12:55 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, sounds pretty good. Yeah,
00:12:55 --> 00:12:57 well it sounds ridiculous to me but
00:12:57 --> 00:13:00 apparently uh, inflatable space stations are
00:13:00 --> 00:13:03 actually more uh, resistant or
00:13:03 --> 00:13:06 more resilient to space debris than
00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 solid ones because you can make the, you can
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 make the fabric of which you make uh, which
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 you can construct it. Um, you can make
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 it out of many different layers including you
00:13:16 --> 00:13:19 know, the bulletproof material and things of
00:13:19 --> 00:13:21 that sort. And in some ways it becomes self
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 healing. You put, put a hole in it and, and
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 it just goes oh right. And covers comes up
00:13:26 --> 00:13:26 the whole.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:28 Andrew Dunkley: Like that stuff you used to put in a car
00:13:28 --> 00:13:28 tire.
00:13:28 --> 00:13:29 Professor Fred Watson: What was it called?
00:13:29 --> 00:13:31 Andrew Dunkley: Fini Leak or something? Yeah, you got it, you
00:13:31 --> 00:13:33 got a flat and you just pumped it back up and
00:13:33 --> 00:13:33 it was fixed.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:37 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, I've heard from people that that didn't
00:13:37 --> 00:13:38 always work terribly well.
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 M. Um. When we discovered that
00:13:43 --> 00:13:46 Marnie's uh, Suzuki doesn't have a
00:13:46 --> 00:13:48 spare wheel a ah couple of weeks ago because
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 she had a Hampshire. Anyway,
00:13:51 --> 00:13:54 that was a different story but um. Uh, it
00:13:54 --> 00:13:55 was, was it Bigelow? I think that's the name
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 of the company. They back 20 years ago
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 were um. In fact they launched two
00:14:01 --> 00:14:03 spacecraft whose names I can't remember now,
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 uh, which were um, basically aimed at
00:14:07 --> 00:14:10 the space tourism industry. Um, to have
00:14:10 --> 00:14:13 an orbiting hotel which was um,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:16 basically constructed of fabric rather than
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 solid metal. And I think the two of them are
00:14:19 --> 00:14:21 still up there. Uh, actually I think they're
00:14:21 --> 00:14:21 still in orbit.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 Yeah, no people on them. One of them was
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25 filled up with bits of paper with people's
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 photographs on and their names, uh, uh,
00:14:28 --> 00:14:31 so you could see a photograph. There was a
00:14:31 --> 00:14:33 camera that showed all these things floating
00:14:33 --> 00:14:34 around in zero g.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:37 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah, look, the space hotel.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:39 That's going to be a thing for sure one day,
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 no doubt about it. But uh,
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 25 years of continuous human occupation of
00:14:45 --> 00:14:47 space and uh, counting, it's um,
00:14:48 --> 00:14:50 going to. And the other point is, um, uh, in
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 those 25 years there has never been a time
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 where there was not an American in space.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:58 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's true. That's, that's true.
00:14:58 --> 00:15:00 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, that too is impressive. Yes. All
00:15:00 --> 00:15:03 right, uh, you can read all about it in a
00:15:03 --> 00:15:05 great article on the conversation.com.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 this is space Nuts Andrew Dunkley here with
00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 Professor Fred Watson Watson.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 Space Nuts. Let's move a little further out
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 from low Earth orbit to uh, our uh, one and
00:15:17 --> 00:15:20 only natural satellite, the Moon. And it's
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23 being looked at the, with very, very um,
00:15:23 --> 00:15:25 um, what's the word I'm looking for?
00:15:26 --> 00:15:29 Uh, enticing attitudes. They
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 want to uh, look into the craters because uh,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 they think that those craters
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 may contain some rich deposits of
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 precious metals, uh, that um,
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 we could probably use.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:47 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. I love the logic of this research,
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51 uh, Andrew. Um, it's kind
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 of flawless really. But it's something that
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 we haven't thought of before and that is that
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 people um, uh,
00:16:00 --> 00:16:03 have thought, been thinking perhaps for the
00:16:03 --> 00:16:06 last 15 years about the metal and
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08 mineral reserves that we know exist on
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 asteroids. Uh, and 15
00:16:11 --> 00:16:14 years ago I'm sure you and I talked about it
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 probably when you were on ABC Western
00:16:16 --> 00:16:18 Plains then rather than the podcast.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 Uh, there were companies set up. One was
00:16:21 --> 00:16:24 Planetary Resources Deep, uh, Space
00:16:24 --> 00:16:26 Industries was another. Uh, I think they've
00:16:26 --> 00:16:29 all been taken over by blockchain companies
00:16:29 --> 00:16:30 now. They're not really active anymore. But
00:16:30 --> 00:16:33 the idea was to set up a
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 space, a kind of off planet economy where
00:16:36 --> 00:16:39 you go and mine these asteroids for
00:16:39 --> 00:16:41 uh, resources. Um,
00:16:43 --> 00:16:45 but there are all kinds of pitfalls
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 with even these near Earth asteroids. It's
00:16:48 --> 00:16:51 actually for a start, uh, you know,
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 they've got so little gravity that um, any
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 mining apparatus that you put on it
00:16:57 --> 00:17:00 risks just floating away, uh, as
00:17:00 --> 00:17:02 it tries to dig up stuff.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:05 Um, they're quite
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07 complicated um, to
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 reach as well, even though the nearest Earth,
00:17:10 --> 00:17:12 uh, asteroids of course, ah, come near the
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 Earth. Uh, but that um, places
00:17:15 --> 00:17:18 some demands on the astrodynamics
00:17:18 --> 00:17:20 needed to get there. Um,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:23 here's the other thing and this probably,
00:17:24 --> 00:17:26 uh, is one of the things that makes it
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 difficult. They tumble in space.
00:17:30 --> 00:17:32 You know, they're rotating, they're all
00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 rotating sometimes in uh, you know, if
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 you've got a small one, they'll rotate once
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 in not just a few hours but um, you
00:17:40 --> 00:17:43 know, a few minutes really. Uh, and if you've
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 got something I'm um, trying to stick onto it
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 and dig holes in it, that's quite a
00:17:48 --> 00:17:50 challenge. So here's the logic though.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:53 Um, if uh,
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56 uh, we think that there are
00:17:56 --> 00:17:59 valuable minerals uh,
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 in asteroids, why don't we
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 go and find the debris
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 that was left by asteroids when they hit the
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 moon? Uh, and that is the
00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 material that uh, is
00:18:15 --> 00:18:17 in and around lunar craters.
00:18:18 --> 00:18:20 Uh, so this is research that's been done by
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 uh, I think it's a team, there are
00:18:23 --> 00:18:24 universities involved, but I think it's an
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 independent astronomer who's led it. Um,
00:18:28 --> 00:18:31 if you uh, think about the
00:18:31 --> 00:18:33 craters of the moon, uh,
00:18:34 --> 00:18:37 you can actually analyse a lot of
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 what their geology is like from above just by
00:18:39 --> 00:18:42 looking at the spectrum colours of the rocks.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 You're basically doing something called
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 spectrophotometry where you're breaking up
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 basically using filters, uh, to find
00:18:49 --> 00:18:51 them. And they suggest, these researchers
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 suggest that there are up to
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57 6 impact craters that
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 might contain the platinum group metals
00:19:00 --> 00:19:03 like rhodium, palladium and platinum itself.
00:19:03 --> 00:19:06 And they also suspect about half that number
00:19:07 --> 00:19:10 might be water bearing, that they've
00:19:10 --> 00:19:12 got hydrated minerals in it and it's a
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 molecule that basically you can extract water
00:19:15 --> 00:19:18 from. Um, and so
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 um, in fact what the team writes, and I'm
00:19:21 --> 00:19:23 reading here partly from Michelle, uh,
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 Starr's article, uh, on Science Alert.
00:19:26 --> 00:19:28 Michelle Starr, one of our um, heroines, I
00:19:28 --> 00:19:31 think in terms of uh, science journalism, uh,
00:19:31 --> 00:19:33 she's written a very nice article on this,
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 but she quotes uh, one of the
00:19:36 --> 00:19:38 team members, these numbers, the
00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 6500 and about 3400 impact
00:19:41 --> 00:19:44 craters with water. These values are one to
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 two orders of magnitude larger than the
00:19:46 --> 00:19:49 number of ore bearing near Earth asteroids,
00:19:49 --> 00:19:52 um, uh, that we could, you know, we
00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 could effectively mine. Uh, that implies
00:19:55 --> 00:19:57 that it may be more advantageous and hence
00:19:57 --> 00:20:00 more profitable to mine asteroids that have
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 impacted the Moon rather than the ones that
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 are important than it, that are in orbit. Uh,
00:20:06 --> 00:20:08 and so yeah, that's um, a really
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 Interesting idea. It is. Um,
00:20:11 --> 00:20:14 and as you say, as you said in your intro,
00:20:14 --> 00:20:17 there are ethical considerations with this as
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 well. Um, I'm interested in your view of
00:20:20 --> 00:20:20 that, Andrew.
00:20:21 --> 00:20:22 Andrew Dunkley: What? Mining the moon?
00:20:22 --> 00:20:23 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:20:23 --> 00:20:26 Andrew Dunkley: Well, it takes it away from Earth, um,
00:20:26 --> 00:20:29 and then it's, it's got limited resources
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 and um, there's a lot of controversy about
00:20:32 --> 00:20:35 mining the m. Moon. Uh, mining the Earth
00:20:35 --> 00:20:37 because of the environmental impact, because
00:20:37 --> 00:20:40 so many creatures, including humans,
00:20:40 --> 00:20:43 rely on a decent environment. Um,
00:20:43 --> 00:20:46 mining the moon, not the same problem. Um,
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 I'm, I'm m. Not that much against it,
00:20:50 --> 00:20:52 to be honest. I think, uh, if there's stuff
00:20:52 --> 00:20:54 there that we need and we can use.
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think, Kami, we should have a crack.
00:20:59 --> 00:21:02 I think I agree with that. I still
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 think, um, the Moon needs to be
00:21:05 --> 00:21:07 handled with great care in the sense
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 that. Yeah. Uh, except we're not mining
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 Antarctica because I was about to mine.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:13 Andrew Dunkley: Not yet.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:15 Professor Fred Watson: No. Well, not yet. That's right. Um,
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 so do you want to, uh, pass
00:21:19 --> 00:21:21 legislation that says the Moon is used for
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 purely scientific purposes, or do you want to
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 open up the possibility of maybe just
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 limited mining in certain areas? Um,
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 uh, it's something I'd be ambivalent about as
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 well, I think, um. I don't think I'd rule it
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 out completely, but I think it would have to
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 be done within an ethical framework. And that
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 to me means international collaboration,
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 which we don't have at the moment. What we've
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 got is a race to the Moon, uh, effectively.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:51 And perhaps this is one of the, um,
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 you know, this is one of the carrots that is,
00:21:54 --> 00:21:57 uh, dragging that race to the Moon along or
00:21:57 --> 00:21:58 accelerating that race to the Moon.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 Andrew Dunkley: Well, there are already things on the Moon
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04 that um, we see as
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 valuable that don't exist or are
00:22:07 --> 00:22:09 easily accessible on Earth.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 So that's another thing that's probably got
00:22:12 --> 00:22:13 them rushing.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, you're probably thinking of, um, helium
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 3, the rare isotope of helium that would.
00:22:19 --> 00:22:21 Has the promise of cheap, uh,
00:22:22 --> 00:22:24 fusion reactors, cheap and safe
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 fusion reactors because of the low levels of
00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 radiation that they emit. M. Um, that's still
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 an unproven technology. I don't think we've
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 got Enough helium, helium 3 on the Earth to
00:22:34 --> 00:22:36 build a reactor. It's very rare on our
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39 planet, but, um, it's thought to be fairly
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 prolific on the Moon because it's formed from
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 the solar radiation. So you know that.
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 Yeah, that's another issue. So, yes, I think,
00:22:47 --> 00:22:50 um, I'd be certainly open to the
00:22:50 --> 00:22:51 debate, but I would like it to be in an
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 international forum and maybe the forum
00:22:54 --> 00:22:56 would be the one I was involved with a couple
00:22:56 --> 00:22:58 of years ago, kopos, the Committee on the
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. Uh, which is a
00:23:02 --> 00:23:04 subset of unusa, the UN Office of Outer Space
00:23:04 --> 00:23:07 Affairs. Um, one would hope that they will
00:23:07 --> 00:23:09 be deeply involved with something like this.
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 Um, and um, that some sort of
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 contestants might emerge from it.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 Andrew Dunkley: Yes, I hope so. Um, of course if they do
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20 end up going up there and digging around and
00:23:20 --> 00:23:23 going ah, this is just junk. It's just, you
00:23:23 --> 00:23:25 know, um, maybe the dairy industry will find
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 something easy. So.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 Professor Fred Watson: I think that's, that is quite a leap of uh.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 Andrew Dunkley: I don't know. When I was a kid, when I.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38 Professor Fred Watson: Was a kid I thought the cow jumped over the
00:23:38 --> 00:23:39 moon. It didn't actually land on it.
00:23:40 --> 00:23:42 Andrew Dunkley: I was told that the moon was made of cheese.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:45 Professor Fred Watson: Cheese, yeah. Anyway, uh,
00:23:45 --> 00:23:46 yeah, there you go.
00:23:46 --> 00:23:49 Andrew Dunkley: There are all sorts of possibilities, but the
00:23:49 --> 00:23:50 possibility of water.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:51 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, yeah, that's right.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:53 Andrew Dunkley: In some of these craters too.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 Professor Fred Watson: And I think you know, Artemis, um, well,
00:23:56 --> 00:23:57 Artemis 2 is going to be a flyby.
00:23:57 --> 00:23:59 Artemis 3, the first landing on the mission.
00:23:59 --> 00:24:02 We hope in about two years time if
00:24:02 --> 00:24:05 Blue Origin and um, SpaceX get their act
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 together with their respective lunar landers,
00:24:07 --> 00:24:09 which are still uh, quite a long way from
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 being ready, that uh, that could start to
00:24:12 --> 00:24:15 tell us, uh, because we'll naturally there'll
00:24:15 --> 00:24:18 be samples coming back which will be uh,
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 checked for all these hydrated molecules and
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 perhaps um, just for ice itself because
00:24:23 --> 00:24:25 uh, you're going to be near some of the
00:24:25 --> 00:24:28 craters that have never seen sunlight,
00:24:28 --> 00:24:31 uh, on the moon's south pole. Yeah, so we're
00:24:31 --> 00:24:33 in a really interesting time, Andrew. And uh,
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36 so much ahead that M may or may not
00:24:36 --> 00:24:37 contrafete fruition.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 Andrew Dunkley: We will wait and see. Uh, you can read all
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 about it in the paper that's been
00:24:43 --> 00:24:45 published in Planetary and Space Science or
00:24:45 --> 00:24:46 you can read the
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49 article@sciencealert.com
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 this is space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 Fred Watson Watson. Three, two,
00:24:54 --> 00:24:56 one. Space Nuts.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:00 Our final story on this episode, Fred Watson,
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 uh, is about uh,
00:25:02 --> 00:25:05 creating a, a, uh, new rocket
00:25:05 --> 00:25:08 motor. But uh, this one's a bit
00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 different. They're going to 3D print them and
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13 it is an Australian project.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 Professor Fred Watson: That's right, 3D printed
00:25:17 --> 00:25:19 rocket motors are not new. Um,
00:25:20 --> 00:25:23 there's I think rocket lab in
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 New Zealand might. Oh yeah, and
00:25:26 --> 00:25:28 possibly Gilmour as well here in Australia.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 Uh, but this is uh,
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 different and it's uh, a first of a different
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 kind because it's uh. This
00:25:38 --> 00:25:40 blows my mind I have to say. It's a
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 3D printed rocket motor
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 made out of two different metals. And
00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 as I understand it as in the 3D
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 printing process you can lay
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 these metals down independently and ah,
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 maybe even m mix them. But you can, I think
00:25:57 --> 00:25:59 you can structure the thing so that the
00:25:59 --> 00:26:01 different bits of it uh, have the metals
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 where you want them to be. Um, which is an
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 extraordinary thing. There's a lot of things
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 that surprise me about um,
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 this story Andrew, which is actually on Space
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 Connect, uh, which is an Australian
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 homegrown space uh
00:26:18 --> 00:26:21 website. Um, the first is that
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 this work has been done by
00:26:25 --> 00:26:26 uh, using
00:26:29 --> 00:26:32 an off the shelf 3D printer and it's
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 apparently called a Nikon SLM Solutions
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 SLM2082MA M metal
00:26:37 --> 00:26:40 printer. The fact that you can buy something
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 like that uh, is just you know,
00:26:43 --> 00:26:44 a reflection of the era that we live in. And
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 um, it may well be that some of our SpaceNots
00:26:47 --> 00:26:49 listeners are in the 3D printing industry and
00:26:49 --> 00:26:51 they might say oh this is old stuff, this is
00:26:51 --> 00:26:54 completely old hat. And I have to say uh,
00:26:54 --> 00:26:57 back in 2000 um, when we were building
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 the 60F instrument for the UK Schmidt
00:26:59 --> 00:27:01 telescope, remember I used to build
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 instruments, we actually did 3D print some of
00:27:03 --> 00:27:06 the components for that but they were made of
00:27:06 --> 00:27:08 plastic effectively. But it was a really good
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 way of doing it. And it was one of our
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12 scientists, Will Saunders, Dr. Will Saunders,
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 he suggested the 3D printing process and it
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 turned out very successfully. So 3D printing
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 is not a new technology. But um, you
00:27:21 --> 00:27:22 know the fact that you could go and buy
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 something that will print with two different
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 metals to me blows my mind.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:29 Um, so uh, Space Machines company
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 is smc, uh and they are the
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 uh, delivery agency for this
00:27:36 --> 00:27:38 uh, uh new facility and it's in
00:27:38 --> 00:27:40 partnership with our national science agency,
00:27:40 --> 00:27:43 the csiro, uh
00:27:43 --> 00:27:45 Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 Organisation, um with uh,
00:27:48 --> 00:27:50 some number of colleagues from there. I was
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 at, with last week at the uh, conference. So
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55 CSRO and SMC Space Machines
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 company have uh, built this thruster
00:27:59 --> 00:28:01 uh for something called the Optimus
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 Viper spacecraft which is an Australian built
00:28:04 --> 00:28:06 platform designed for on orbit
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 inspection, servicing and logistics. As we
00:28:09 --> 00:28:10 read in their blur.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:12 Andrew Dunkley: It sounds like a cool spacecraft.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:12 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah it does.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:13 Andrew Dunkley: Viper.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:15 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah I like that too.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:18 So um, it's uh,
00:28:19 --> 00:28:22 really um. I think part of this is, and
00:28:22 --> 00:28:24 we hear this a lot these days, it's our
00:28:24 --> 00:28:27 sovereign capability, uh we're
00:28:27 --> 00:28:29 striving uh to build a sovereign space
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 capabilities um by
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 developing manufacturing and operating
00:28:35 --> 00:28:36 space technology right here in Australia.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:39 That comes from uh, Darren Lovett who is
00:28:41 --> 00:28:43 the executive director of something called
00:28:43 --> 00:28:45 Ilaunch. Ilaunch is a.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 Is, uh, basically a collaboration. I'm very
00:28:49 --> 00:28:50 glad to see that one of the universities I
00:28:50 --> 00:28:52 have an adjunct
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55 professorship with, uh, is part and parcel of
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 it. The University of Southern Queensland and
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59 the Australian National University are
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 involved as well, along with the University
00:29:01 --> 00:29:03 of South Australia. So a big partnership that
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06 is, um, sort of masterminding, if
00:29:06 --> 00:29:09 you like, some of these, um, new
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 technologies. But uh, yes, to see
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 this little thruster. And actually on the
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16 Space Connect article that I
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 just referred to, there's a very nice. A, uh,
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21 very nice photograph of it. A little chunk of
00:29:21 --> 00:29:24 metal, quite complicated shape, uh, very,
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 uh, interestingly presented and no
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 doubt will do its stuff admirably when it
00:29:30 --> 00:29:31 is in space.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Combining two metals in a single build,
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 um, brazing of copper and steel
00:29:37 --> 00:29:39 components. So, uh, it's. It's, you know,
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 that's. That's. That's tough stuff.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 Professor Fred Watson: It is. It's steel for strength and
00:29:44 --> 00:29:47 copper for, uh, thermal conductivity, as I
00:29:47 --> 00:29:47 understand it.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, that's impressive. Yeah, uh, that's a
00:29:50 --> 00:29:52 great story with a, ah, great Australian
00:29:52 --> 00:29:55 connection and, uh, no doubt, um, another
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 giant leap forward for humankind in the
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 space race. And you can read about it, as
00:30:00 --> 00:30:02 Fred Watson mentioned at Space Connect
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 online. And uh, that's
00:30:06 --> 00:30:07 about all we've got time for. Fred Watson,
00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 thank you very much.
00:30:09 --> 00:30:10 Professor Fred Watson: So, thank you. We'll take our
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 bimetallic thrusters and zoom off into the
00:30:14 --> 00:30:15 wide blue yonder. Good to talk to.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:18 Andrew Dunkley: Sure will indeed. Good to talk to you too.
00:30:18 --> 00:30:21 And uh, we often get suggestions from people
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23 asking about stories or things that they'd
00:30:23 --> 00:30:26 like us to talk about. So if you do have
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28 something in mind that, uh, you think we
00:30:28 --> 00:30:30 should cover, uh, or if you spot something in
00:30:30 --> 00:30:33 the media that we don't, that you think is,
00:30:33 --> 00:30:35 uh, worth a mention, uh, we. We'd
00:30:35 --> 00:30:37 encourage you to jump on our website and send
00:30:37 --> 00:30:39 us, uh, the details and we'll see if we can
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 chase it up. More than happy to do so. Saves
00:30:42 --> 00:30:44 us a lot of work. And, um.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 Oh, sorry, Fred Watson. Go
00:30:48 --> 00:30:48 on.
00:30:48 --> 00:30:50 Professor Fred Watson: No, yes, you're quite right. It saves us a
00:30:50 --> 00:30:51 lot of work.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:54 Andrew Dunkley: Well, if we're talking about what the
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 audience wants us to talk about, that's all
00:30:56 --> 00:30:58 the setup. All right, thanks, Fred Watson.
00:30:58 --> 00:30:59 We'll see you soon.
00:31:00 --> 00:31:01 Professor Fred Watson: Sounds good. Thanks, Andrew.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 Andrew Dunkley: Fred Watson Watson, astronomer at large. And
00:31:03 --> 00:31:05 thanks to Huw in the studio who didn't turn
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 up again today because, uh, well,
00:31:09 --> 00:31:12 he got arrested by a copper. And from
00:31:12 --> 00:31:15 me, Andrew Dunkley. Think about it.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:16 Next to your company, we'll see you on the
00:31:16 --> 00:31:19 very next episode of Space Nuts. Bye bye.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:20 Professor Fred Watson: Hi there.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:22 Andrew Dunkley: Welcome to a Q and A edition of Space
00:31:22 --> 00:31:25 Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley, your host.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:27 Good to have your company again. Uh,
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 questions coming today from Pete. Uh, he's
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 looking at the collapse of the universe.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:35 Wants to know where he needs to be when it
00:31:35 --> 00:31:37 happens, so he gets a good view. Actually, I
00:31:37 --> 00:31:39 think it's about something else. Uh, we've
00:31:39 --> 00:31:42 also got a question from Tad, who's brought
00:31:42 --> 00:31:44 up a really interesting point about falling
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 into a black hole. From an observer's
00:31:46 --> 00:31:49 perspective, if we were to watch someone or
00:31:49 --> 00:31:51 something do, uh, really is
00:31:53 --> 00:31:55 a great piece of science to talk about. Uh,
00:31:55 --> 00:31:58 Mark is bringing up something from an
00:31:58 --> 00:32:01 episode four years ago, I think, uh,
00:32:01 --> 00:32:03 antimatter stars. And Dave
00:32:04 --> 00:32:06 wants um, to know about the best time and
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 place to aim a camera for, uh, low light
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 astrophotography. Uh, that
00:32:12 --> 00:32:14 is a great question. Uh, I've had so much
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16 trouble with that myself. We'll get stuck
00:32:16 --> 00:32:19 into it right now on this edition of space
00:32:19 --> 00:32:21 nuts. 15 seconds. Guidance is
00:32:21 --> 00:32:22 internal.
00:32:22 --> 00:32:24 Professor Fred Watson: 10, 9.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:26 Andrew Dunkley: Ignition sequence start.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 Professor Fred Watson: Space nuts. 5, 4, 3, 2. 1. 2,
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:34 Andrew Dunkley: Astronauts reported bill.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:35 Professor Fred Watson: Good.
00:32:35 --> 00:32:37 Andrew Dunkley: And here he is again, Professor Fred Watson
00:32:37 --> 00:32:39 Watson, Astronomer at large. Hello,
00:32:39 --> 00:32:39 Fred Watson.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:42 Professor Fred Watson: Hello, Andrew. Fancy seeing you here.
00:32:42 --> 00:32:43 Yes, yes.
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 Andrew Dunkley: And we're in similar coloured shirts today.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. I think we're very chic green.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 Andrew Dunkley: Judy reckons green's my colour, but I've
00:32:50 --> 00:32:52 never really liked green. But
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55 anyway, she's more of a
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 fashionista than I am, so I'll take her word
00:32:57 --> 00:33:00 for it. Uh, how you been?
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 Professor Fred Watson: Very well, thank you. Yes, all seems to be
00:33:03 --> 00:33:04 going well so far.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:07 Andrew Dunkley: You look and sound as well as the last time I
00:33:07 --> 00:33:07 saw you.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:10 Professor Fred Watson: Well, that's right, you know, uh,
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14 uh, it seems like only a few
00:33:14 --> 00:33:16 minutes ago. It does, doesn't it?
00:33:16 --> 00:33:18 Andrew Dunkley: Funny that um, that's because of a black
00:33:18 --> 00:33:19 hole.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:21 Professor Fred Watson: It could be a black bill for nothing.
00:33:23 --> 00:33:25 Andrew Dunkley: Although we must point out that this will be
00:33:25 --> 00:33:28 your last show for a short while. You're
00:33:28 --> 00:33:30 taking uh, a bit of a trip which will take
00:33:30 --> 00:33:32 um, you into time zones that are just not
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34 compatible with life on Earth in Australia.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:37 So, um, uh, we will be
00:33:37 --> 00:33:40 bringing our, uh, stand in Johnty Horner in
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 to look after things while you're away for
00:33:42 --> 00:33:45 about 7ish weeks, something like that.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:48 We knew this was going to happen this year
00:33:48 --> 00:33:51 with me away for three months and you away
00:33:51 --> 00:33:53 for uh, a couple of months. So we knew this
00:33:53 --> 00:33:56 was going to happen and we planned ahead so
00:33:56 --> 00:33:58 that the show could go on. So, um,
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 anyway, um, we'll look forward to chatting
00:34:01 --> 00:34:03 with Jonty and, uh, wish you well on your
00:34:03 --> 00:34:05 trip. Um, where are you going?
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 Professor Fred Watson: Uh, we've got about two and a half weeks in
00:34:09 --> 00:34:12 Japan. Uh, then we're back in
00:34:12 --> 00:34:14 Australia very briefly and then we're off up
00:34:14 --> 00:34:17 to Ireland for a Dark sky conference
00:34:17 --> 00:34:19 and, uh, skipping over to the UK to
00:34:19 --> 00:34:21 hang out with my family for a little bit in
00:34:21 --> 00:34:24 the UK and uh, that'll take us to the end
00:34:24 --> 00:34:25 of November.
00:34:25 --> 00:34:27 Andrew Dunkley: Why wouldn't you? It's just a short hop,
00:34:27 --> 00:34:28 isn't it, really?
00:34:28 --> 00:34:29 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's stupid going
00:34:29 --> 00:34:32 to Ireland or going to the uk. That's right.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:34 So we'll do a few, uh, things. We're going
00:34:34 --> 00:34:37 to, uh. Marnie's got a nice itinerary for us.
00:34:37 --> 00:34:39 We're going to go to places that I have
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 wanted to go ever since I was a child and
00:34:41 --> 00:34:44 never made it in the uk. So that's fantastic.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:46 We'll tell you about it when we get back.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 Andrew Dunkley: Love to hear about it. Um, we better get
00:34:49 --> 00:34:50 into the, uh, questions.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:51 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, yes.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 Our first question's an audio question, uh,
00:34:56 --> 00:34:57 coming from Pete.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:00 Professor Fred Watson: Hi, Fred Watson and Andrew. Pete from Long
00:35:00 --> 00:35:03 Point got a question. I know that
00:35:03 --> 00:35:06 it's. There's contested as to
00:35:06 --> 00:35:08 what's going to happen in the future with the
00:35:08 --> 00:35:10 universe they're going to,
00:35:11 --> 00:35:14 or however it's pronounced or expansion or
00:35:14 --> 00:35:16 the big grip or whatever. The question if, if
00:35:16 --> 00:35:19 the universe is going to collapse
00:35:19 --> 00:35:22 back in itself. I get the concept of
00:35:22 --> 00:35:25 the gravity bringing
00:35:25 --> 00:35:27 sort of physical matter back together and I
00:35:27 --> 00:35:30 know that's only what, 5% of the universe,
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 but I don't understand how that would work
00:35:34 --> 00:35:37 with the basically pulling
00:35:37 --> 00:35:40 of light backwards. So you have light
00:35:40 --> 00:35:42 is expanding ever
00:35:42 --> 00:35:44 increasingly obviously at the speed of light.
00:35:45 --> 00:35:48 Um, basically what happens with that
00:35:48 --> 00:35:51 in the event there is a collapse back to
00:35:51 --> 00:35:53 another singularity? Um,
00:35:54 --> 00:35:56 yeah, I'm confused. Thanks guys.
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 Andrew Dunkley: I think a lot of people are, uh. Um, yeah, he
00:36:00 --> 00:36:02 was referring to the gnab gib, which is the
00:36:02 --> 00:36:05 reverse idig bang. Yeah. Uh, but
00:36:05 --> 00:36:07 it's an interesting question because if it
00:36:07 --> 00:36:10 does happen, rather than a big rip, uh,
00:36:10 --> 00:36:13 the universe stops expanding and then
00:36:13 --> 00:36:15 starts receding back in on itself,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:18 what does happen to the light and the
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 dark matter and all that other stuff that we
00:36:21 --> 00:36:22 don't understand.
00:36:23 --> 00:36:26 Professor Fred Watson: So, um, uh,
00:36:27 --> 00:36:29 this. No, thanks very much, Pete.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 Great question, uh, which has arisen because,
00:36:34 --> 00:36:36 um, I think it might be while you were away,
00:36:36 --> 00:36:38 Andrew, we covered the new
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41 observations that have come from the dark
00:36:41 --> 00:36:44 energy, uh, instrument, um,
00:36:45 --> 00:36:48 which is, uh, on
00:36:48 --> 00:36:50 the mail telescopes, a telescope very similar
00:36:50 --> 00:36:52 to our Anglo Australian telescope, uh,
00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 uh, which has been surveying the universe as
00:36:55 --> 00:36:58 you do such instruments, um, getting
00:36:58 --> 00:37:00 the redshifts, which means the distances of
00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 all the galaxies and building up a map. And
00:37:03 --> 00:37:05 that map, um, has just the first hint
00:37:06 --> 00:37:09 that the acceleration of the
00:37:09 --> 00:37:11 universe, which we attribute to this dark
00:37:11 --> 00:37:14 energy, whatever it is, the acceleration of
00:37:14 --> 00:37:16 the universe is actually slowing down. It's
00:37:16 --> 00:37:18 still only a hint, it's not confirmed yet.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:21 But if the acceleration is slowing down,
00:37:21 --> 00:37:24 then it does raised once again
00:37:24 --> 00:37:26 the possibility that we talked about a lot in
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29 the 1970s and 80s, uh, the idea
00:37:29 --> 00:37:32 of an eventual collapse, a reversal of the
00:37:32 --> 00:37:34 expansion of the universe to a collapse.
00:37:34 --> 00:37:37 Uh, and the end product of that is often
00:37:37 --> 00:37:40 called the Big Crunch. But we like the Gnab
00:37:40 --> 00:37:42 gib. That was the name that Brian Schmidt
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 gave to it. It's a great name. So what
00:37:45 --> 00:37:47 happens in the Gnab gib? Well, um,
00:37:48 --> 00:37:51 it is interesting. You've got gravity taking
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54 over and it doesn't just
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 sort of bring together the,
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 the objects in space, it doesn't just
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03 collapse all the galaxies towards one place,
00:38:03 --> 00:38:05 it actually collapses space time with it,
00:38:06 --> 00:38:09 um, because the, you know, the
00:38:09 --> 00:38:12 matter bends space. We know. And that bending
00:38:12 --> 00:38:14 is effectively what you, what you would call
00:38:14 --> 00:38:17 the collapse, uh, in the run up to
00:38:17 --> 00:38:20 the, or the run down to the Gnab gib.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:23 And so in a sense, uh, the light,
00:38:24 --> 00:38:26 uh, so what I'm saying is that,
00:38:27 --> 00:38:29 um, the distances that
00:38:30 --> 00:38:32 the distances that we measure between
00:38:32 --> 00:38:34 galaxies becomes less, but
00:38:35 --> 00:38:37 it's because the space time has shrunk
00:38:37 --> 00:38:40 basically. Uh, and so not just that
00:38:40 --> 00:38:43 the galaxies have got closer together. Um,
00:38:43 --> 00:38:45 and that means, uh, that yes, light will
00:38:45 --> 00:38:48 still continue to travel through spacetime at
00:38:48 --> 00:38:51 300 kilometres per second, but that space
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 time has got less space in it. Um,
00:38:54 --> 00:38:56 and so the light just shrinks with the
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59 universe. It doesn't kind of escape or
00:38:59 --> 00:39:02 anything that many gazillions
00:39:02 --> 00:39:05 of photons that are currently traversing the
00:39:05 --> 00:39:07 universe and will continue to do that, uh, as
00:39:07 --> 00:39:08 long as things are shining and there's energy
00:39:08 --> 00:39:11 to provide that they will have shorter
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 distances to go. Uh, and we will find
00:39:14 --> 00:39:17 that the universe just gets smaller. As it
00:39:17 --> 00:39:19 gets smaller, the light goes with it and we
00:39:19 --> 00:39:22 end up with a bundle of stuff, uh, subatomic
00:39:22 --> 00:39:25 particles, including photons, particles of
00:39:25 --> 00:39:26 light, a whole lot of stuff that is going to
00:39:26 --> 00:39:29 hit, um, an almighty singularity,
00:39:29 --> 00:39:32 uh, uh, which we might call the Gnab
00:39:32 --> 00:39:34 gib. Yeah. Wow.
00:39:34 --> 00:39:37 Andrew Dunkley: Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't
00:39:37 --> 00:39:40 we talk in the past. About a time where the
00:39:40 --> 00:39:43 universe will become dark and
00:39:43 --> 00:39:46 cold and there won't be
00:39:46 --> 00:39:46 any light.
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50 Professor Fred Watson: Well, um, that's right. If the universe
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 continues expanding, then eventually
00:39:53 --> 00:39:54 there will be light there, but it won't be
00:39:54 --> 00:39:56 able to reach you because it'll be beyond
00:39:57 --> 00:39:59 your horizon. Uh, uh,
00:39:59 --> 00:40:01 so the light will still be going through the
00:40:01 --> 00:40:04 universe, but that light source will be
00:40:04 --> 00:40:07 receding from us, um, too
00:40:07 --> 00:40:10 fast for the light ever to get to us. So,
00:40:10 --> 00:40:12 yes, it becomes dark and dreary. Uh, but,
00:40:12 --> 00:40:14 yeah, light is still there.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:17 Andrew Dunkley: All right, there you go, Pete. Um, it will
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19 all be cataclysmic and horrible, and we'll,
00:40:19 --> 00:40:20 uh, all be a lot shorter.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:24 Professor Fred Watson: Every dimension.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:27 Andrew Dunkley: Indeed, yes. Although I'm starting to like
00:40:27 --> 00:40:29 the idea of a big rip. Because a big rip
00:40:29 --> 00:40:31 might open us to another universe and we
00:40:31 --> 00:40:32 could all escape.
00:40:33 --> 00:40:36 Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, maybe. Well, of course, with the
00:40:36 --> 00:40:38 big. The gnab gib, you could get the big
00:40:38 --> 00:40:40 bounce. Uh, you know, it could just bounce
00:40:40 --> 00:40:42 back. So you've suddenly got an expanding
00:40:42 --> 00:40:43 universe immediately.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 Andrew Dunkley: It's hard to get your head around. And I
00:40:47 --> 00:40:49 understand why Pete feels confused, because
00:40:49 --> 00:40:52 it really is beyond our imagination in many
00:40:52 --> 00:40:53 ways, isn't it?
00:40:53 --> 00:40:54 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Indeed it is.
00:40:54 --> 00:40:56 Andrew Dunkley: Thanks, Pete. Great question. Hope you're
00:40:56 --> 00:40:56 well.
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 Uh, let's go to a question from Tad.
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01 Uh, this one's really interesting. Uh, we
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04 understand that due to extreme gravitational
00:41:04 --> 00:41:07 dilation, from the perspective of an outside
00:41:07 --> 00:41:10 observer, anyone falling into a black hole
00:41:10 --> 00:41:12 takes an infinite amount of time to cross the
00:41:12 --> 00:41:15 event horizon, even if, from that person's
00:41:15 --> 00:41:18 perspective, they actually do in real time.
00:41:18 --> 00:41:21 Uh, if this is true, how do black holes
00:41:21 --> 00:41:23 and their event horizons even form in the
00:41:23 --> 00:41:26 first place? From an outsider's perspective?
00:41:26 --> 00:41:29 And does this mean that technically nothing
00:41:29 --> 00:41:31 has ever fallen into a black hole from our
00:41:31 --> 00:41:33 perspective here on Earth? I love this
00:41:33 --> 00:41:35 question. Thank you, Tad. Uh,
00:41:36 --> 00:41:38 he's bringing up the point where if you're
00:41:38 --> 00:41:40 watching someone fall into the. Into a black
00:41:40 --> 00:41:43 hole because of the
00:41:43 --> 00:41:45 effect, the gravitational effect on time
00:41:46 --> 00:41:49 space, it never happens, but
00:41:49 --> 00:41:52 that person experiences it in
00:41:52 --> 00:41:54 real time until they get spaghettified.
00:41:55 --> 00:41:58 So, um, yeah, how come we see
00:41:58 --> 00:42:01 black holes when this effect
00:42:01 --> 00:42:04 should suggest we should never see
00:42:04 --> 00:42:07 it happen? Is that what he's
00:42:07 --> 00:42:07 saying?
00:42:09 --> 00:42:11 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah. How do black holes form in the first
00:42:11 --> 00:42:13 place? Uh,
00:42:15 --> 00:42:18 so, yes, so in that regard,
00:42:18 --> 00:42:21 that time dilation is a kind of optical
00:42:21 --> 00:42:23 illusion because the thing has crossed the
00:42:23 --> 00:42:26 event horizon, whatever it is has
00:42:26 --> 00:42:28 contributed to the mass of the black hole.
00:42:29 --> 00:42:31 So, uh, the reality is. Yes,
00:42:31 --> 00:42:33 you're. You know, if it's you, you get
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 spaghettified and then you get absorbed by
00:42:36 --> 00:42:37 the black hole itself a gazillionth of a
00:42:37 --> 00:42:40 second later. Um, it's from the outside
00:42:40 --> 00:42:43 perspective. Uh, I've always struggled with
00:42:43 --> 00:42:45 this actually in trying to envisage it
00:42:45 --> 00:42:47 because, yeah, you imagine some poor person
00:42:47 --> 00:42:50 who's fallen into a black hole. Um,
00:42:50 --> 00:42:52 it's be like the, um, you know those chalk,
00:42:53 --> 00:42:55 uh, chalk things on the road where
00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 somebody's got hit by a car. There'd
00:42:59 --> 00:43:01 be this chalk mark of somebody, uh, on the
00:43:01 --> 00:43:04 surface of the event horizon. Um,
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08 uh, but they'd also, uh,
00:43:08 --> 00:43:09 along with that person, there'd be everything
00:43:09 --> 00:43:12 else that's gone into it. And black holes are
00:43:12 --> 00:43:14 notorious for accreting material. So all the
00:43:14 --> 00:43:16 stuff that's spiralling into it from an
00:43:16 --> 00:43:18 outsider's perspective just ends up looking
00:43:18 --> 00:43:20 as though it's stuck on the top surface of
00:43:20 --> 00:43:22 the event horizon, even though it's actually
00:43:22 --> 00:43:25 been absorbed by the, by the black hole.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:27 So it is a kind of optical illusion. Yes,
00:43:27 --> 00:43:30 it's very weird. Uh, it just means that from,
00:43:30 --> 00:43:33 you know, what it highlights is, uh,
00:43:33 --> 00:43:36 it's all about your reference frame. Uh, our
00:43:36 --> 00:43:38 reference frame is an um, observer looking
00:43:38 --> 00:43:40 out, looking in from the outside.
00:43:41 --> 00:43:43 If you've got the reference frame of the
00:43:43 --> 00:43:44 person who's falling into the black hole,
00:43:44 --> 00:43:47 things are a lot different. Uh, we can watch,
00:43:47 --> 00:43:50 um, from the sidelines and cheer people on
00:43:50 --> 00:43:52 as they fall through the black hole event
00:43:52 --> 00:43:54 horizon. All, uh, we see is them
00:43:54 --> 00:43:57 frozen on the event horizon,
00:43:57 --> 00:43:59 uh, which must be a very messy place with all
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01 the stuff that's falling into it.
00:44:01 --> 00:44:01 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah.
00:44:02 --> 00:44:04 Professor Fred Watson: So, um, yeah,
00:44:06 --> 00:44:08 to me that transforms what the event horizon
00:44:08 --> 00:44:10 might look like. It's probably not that nice
00:44:10 --> 00:44:12 sphere of darkness that we imagine, but it's
00:44:12 --> 00:44:15 got, become splattered with lots of stuff.
00:44:15 --> 00:44:17 And in fact, we know that the magnetism of a
00:44:17 --> 00:44:20 black hole actually plays a huge role
00:44:20 --> 00:44:23 in, um, directing material
00:44:23 --> 00:44:25 so that some of the stuff is actually
00:44:25 --> 00:44:27 accelerated perpendicular to the accretion
00:44:27 --> 00:44:30 disc, uh, upwards and
00:44:30 --> 00:44:32 downwards. And that in itself is a process
00:44:32 --> 00:44:35 that it's very hard to get your head around
00:44:35 --> 00:44:36 how stuff that's swirling in towards the
00:44:36 --> 00:44:39 black hole suddenly gets dragged up, up, uh,
00:44:39 --> 00:44:42 and shot out the, the poles of the
00:44:42 --> 00:44:45 black hole, top and bottom. Um, So a
00:44:45 --> 00:44:48 lot of hard work to conjecture. I hope that
00:44:48 --> 00:44:51 helps Tad, to envisage what's going on.
00:44:51 --> 00:44:54 Uh, but, um. Because it's all about your
00:44:54 --> 00:44:55 perspective, basically.
00:44:55 --> 00:44:58 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, yeah. Ah, so the, the black hole,
00:44:58 --> 00:44:59 uh, has happened.
00:45:02 --> 00:45:05 My brain had an idea and it just fell into a
00:45:05 --> 00:45:08 black hole and then I can't remember. But,
00:45:08 --> 00:45:10 uh, we see the black hole
00:45:12 --> 00:45:14 because it's already happened. Is that.
00:45:15 --> 00:45:17 Professor Fred Watson: Well, yeah, the black hole's been created.
00:45:18 --> 00:45:19 I mean, typically in the collapse of
00:45:20 --> 00:45:23 a star at the end of its life. Uh,
00:45:24 --> 00:45:26 so that's a straightforward gravitational
00:45:26 --> 00:45:28 collapse. The material of the star basically
00:45:29 --> 00:45:31 collapses down so that nothing will hold
00:45:31 --> 00:45:34 it out and it becomes this singularity, a
00:45:34 --> 00:45:36 point of infinite density, which is how we
00:45:36 --> 00:45:39 define it. Um, and that's. It's during
00:45:39 --> 00:45:41 that collapse that the event horizon forms.
00:45:41 --> 00:45:44 And you've got that. As I said, it's an
00:45:44 --> 00:45:46 optical illusion. That's the main point to
00:45:46 --> 00:45:48 recognise. It's an optical illusion as seen
00:45:48 --> 00:45:51 from the outside, um,
00:45:51 --> 00:45:53 that nothing reaches the black hole.
00:45:54 --> 00:45:56 Andrew Dunkley: M I'm sure we'll get some more questions on
00:45:56 --> 00:45:58 this one, but, uh, you've probably opened a
00:45:58 --> 00:46:00 can of spaghetti there. Yeah.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:02 Professor Fred Watson: Which is great, because Jonty can deal with
00:46:02 --> 00:46:03 all that.
00:46:04 --> 00:46:06 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. Yes, that's for sure.
00:46:07 --> 00:46:09 All right, Tad, thank you for the question.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:11 This is Space Nuts, a Q and A edition with
00:46:11 --> 00:46:13 Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson
00:46:13 --> 00:46:14 Watson.
00:46:14 --> 00:46:15 Professor Fred Watson: Space Nuts.
00:46:16 --> 00:46:18 Andrew Dunkley: Now, uh, our next question's an audio
00:46:18 --> 00:46:21 question. It comes from Mark.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:24 Professor Fred Watson: Hi, it's Mark in London and Canada.
00:46:24 --> 00:46:27 I just listened to an episode from
00:46:28 --> 00:46:30 March 2021 and Fred Watson mentioned the
00:46:31 --> 00:46:33 possible existence of an antimatter
00:46:33 --> 00:46:36 star and how. Obviously we wouldn't want to
00:46:36 --> 00:46:38 get, uh, anywhere near it,
00:46:39 --> 00:46:42 but I was wondering, is it possible? Does it
00:46:42 --> 00:46:44 exist? Uh, and how could we tell if we're
00:46:44 --> 00:46:47 looking at a star from Earth? Can we tell
00:46:47 --> 00:46:50 if it's regular matter or antimatter
00:46:50 --> 00:46:53 or what if the entire Andromeda Galaxy was
00:46:53 --> 00:46:55 antimatter, would we have a way of
00:46:56 --> 00:46:58 figuring that out? Thanks. Bye.
00:46:59 --> 00:47:02 Andrew Dunkley: M. Uh, I would ask my Auntie
00:47:02 --> 00:47:04 Shirley, but she wouldn't know either. Um,
00:47:05 --> 00:47:07 thank you, Mark. Antimatter stars. We did. I
00:47:07 --> 00:47:09 remember us talking about them. Uh, we do
00:47:09 --> 00:47:12 know there is antimatter. There's just
00:47:12 --> 00:47:15 a hell of a lot less of it than actual
00:47:15 --> 00:47:17 matter, if I recall correctly. But if you've
00:47:17 --> 00:47:20 got, um, a molecule of matter and a molecule
00:47:20 --> 00:47:23 of antimatter and they collide, they just
00:47:23 --> 00:47:25 cease to exist. Is that how it goes?
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29 Professor Fred Watson: Yes, that's right, yeah. Um, what you get,
00:47:29 --> 00:47:32 um, is. So if you. The
00:47:32 --> 00:47:34 difference between a normal matter
00:47:34 --> 00:47:37 particle, uh, like an electron
00:47:37 --> 00:47:40 and its antimatter equivalent
00:47:40 --> 00:47:43 is the electrical charge is the opposite.
00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 So the antimatter equivalent of an electron
00:47:46 --> 00:47:48 is a positron. Um, it's got positive
00:47:48 --> 00:47:51 electrical charge. Uh, and
00:47:52 --> 00:47:54 when two
00:47:55 --> 00:47:57 particles like that meet, they
00:47:57 --> 00:48:00 annihilate. And what you get is a
00:48:00 --> 00:48:03 gamma ray. You get a photon of Gamma ray
00:48:03 --> 00:48:05 energy which has ah,
00:48:07 --> 00:48:10 a uh, characteristic um, frequency
00:48:10 --> 00:48:12 distribution. We actually, in gamma rays we
00:48:12 --> 00:48:14 call it energy. Uh, in light we think of it
00:48:14 --> 00:48:16 as wavelength, in radio waves we think it as
00:48:16 --> 00:48:19 frequency. But it's the same thing basically
00:48:20 --> 00:48:23 uh, at different levels of energy. So you get
00:48:23 --> 00:48:25 these gamma rays which will be emitted with a
00:48:25 --> 00:48:28 specific and characteristic frequency. And
00:48:28 --> 00:48:31 that's the way that you might be able to
00:48:31 --> 00:48:34 detect an antimatter star.
00:48:37 --> 00:48:39 I think this story actually goes back, it
00:48:39 --> 00:48:42 does go back to 2021. I've just found the
00:48:42 --> 00:48:44 article that we referred to. Stars made of
00:48:44 --> 00:48:46 antimatter might be lurking in the universe.
00:48:46 --> 00:48:47 It's from scientists, Scientific American, a
00:48:47 --> 00:48:50 very authoritative source. Um,
00:48:51 --> 00:48:53 but what they were starting the story
00:48:53 --> 00:48:56 with was something that happened in 2018
00:48:56 --> 00:48:59 when uh, one of the
00:48:59 --> 00:49:01 experiments on the outside of the
00:49:01 --> 00:49:02 International Space Station which we talked
00:49:02 --> 00:49:05 about in the last episode with great warmth
00:49:05 --> 00:49:07 and uh, admiration, um,
00:49:08 --> 00:49:10 one of those experiments may have detected
00:49:11 --> 00:49:14 uh, two uh, basically
00:49:14 --> 00:49:17 nuclei of anti helium, um, these
00:49:17 --> 00:49:20 are anti helium particles. And
00:49:20 --> 00:49:23 so you mix that with normal helium and you
00:49:23 --> 00:49:24 get gamma rays. Um
00:49:25 --> 00:49:28 and so the question is
00:49:30 --> 00:49:32 where does that come from? And
00:49:32 --> 00:49:35 that was um, the outcome of this,
00:49:36 --> 00:49:38 the suggestion that the easiest way to
00:49:38 --> 00:49:41 produce anti helium is inside anti
00:49:41 --> 00:49:44 stars, um, which
00:49:44 --> 00:49:46 we still don't know whether they exist or
00:49:46 --> 00:49:49 not. Uh, but really the point of
00:49:49 --> 00:49:52 Marx's question is a good one. I um, don't
00:49:52 --> 00:49:54 think we know much more about this uh,
00:49:56 --> 00:49:58 since that you know that speculation.
00:49:59 --> 00:50:01 Um, but what they're
00:50:01 --> 00:50:04 suggesting I might actually
00:50:04 --> 00:50:07 read uh, from that Scientific American
00:50:07 --> 00:50:10 article and acknowledge the source there.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:13 It was written by ah, ah,
00:50:13 --> 00:50:16 Leto Supuna, who's the author
00:50:16 --> 00:50:19 of that. Um, and I think it
00:50:19 --> 00:50:22 sort of puts it a lot better than I can.
00:50:22 --> 00:50:25 Antistars would shine much as normal ones
00:50:25 --> 00:50:27 do, producing light of the same wavelengths,
00:50:27 --> 00:50:30 but they would exist in a matter dominated
00:50:30 --> 00:50:33 universe. And so as particles and
00:50:33 --> 00:50:35 gases made of regular matter fell into
00:50:35 --> 00:50:38 an antistar's gravitational pull and made
00:50:38 --> 00:50:40 contact with its antimatter, the resulting
00:50:40 --> 00:50:42 annihilations would produce a flash of high
00:50:42 --> 00:50:44 energy light. That's the gamma rays I
00:50:44 --> 00:50:47 mentioned. We can see this light as. There
00:50:47 --> 00:50:49 you go. We can see this light as a specific
00:50:49 --> 00:50:52 colour of gamma rays. Um, and
00:50:52 --> 00:50:53 so one of the teams that they're Talking
00:50:53 --> 00:50:56 about took 10 years of data, uh,
00:50:56 --> 00:50:59 which amounted to roughly 6 light
00:50:59 --> 00:51:00 emitting objects. They paired the list down
00:51:00 --> 00:51:03 to sources that shone with the right gamma
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05 ray frequency and that were not ascribed to
00:51:05 --> 00:51:07 previously catalogued astronomical object.
00:51:07 --> 00:51:10 Um, so this left us with
00:51:10 --> 00:51:13 14 candidates. This is one of the Authors,
00:51:13 --> 00:51:15 uh, talking which in my opinion and my co
00:51:15 --> 00:51:17 author's opinion too, are, um, not anti
00:51:17 --> 00:51:20 stars. Um, yeah,
00:51:20 --> 00:51:23 so. But they say if all those sources were
00:51:23 --> 00:51:25 such stars, that means one antistar would
00:51:25 --> 00:51:28 exist for every 400 ordinary ones in our
00:51:28 --> 00:51:30 stellar neck of the woods. So
00:51:31 --> 00:51:33 we're still struggling to get our heads
00:51:33 --> 00:51:35 around this. And I'm not sure whether any
00:51:35 --> 00:51:38 more of, uh, these characteristic
00:51:38 --> 00:51:41 gamma ray flashes, uh, have
00:51:41 --> 00:51:44 been observed or what the latest is on this
00:51:44 --> 00:51:46 topic. But it is a very interesting one, I
00:51:46 --> 00:51:48 think. Thank Mark for raising it again
00:51:48 --> 00:51:50 because it's one we should perhaps look at in
00:51:50 --> 00:51:53 a bit more detail. Like try and, um, dig out
00:51:53 --> 00:51:55 some stories for when I return to space,
00:51:55 --> 00:51:58 nuts on, um, antistars and see
00:51:58 --> 00:51:59 what we've got in that.
00:52:00 --> 00:52:02 Andrew Dunkley: Do you think they could exist, Frank?
00:52:02 --> 00:52:05 Professor Fred Watson: I do think they could exist, yeah. Um, I
00:52:05 --> 00:52:06 mean, you know, it's one of the big puzzles
00:52:06 --> 00:52:09 of the universe as to why there's so much
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 matter and so little antimatter. When our
00:52:12 --> 00:52:14 best theories of the origin of the universe
00:52:14 --> 00:52:16 suggest that antimatter and matter were
00:52:16 --> 00:52:19 created in equal, you know, in equal
00:52:19 --> 00:52:21 proportions. So, uh, it's
00:52:21 --> 00:52:24 one of these. It is, it's one of these issues
00:52:24 --> 00:52:27 that, um, is. Keeps on bubbling up and, uh,
00:52:27 --> 00:52:29 uh, you know, challenging our understanding.
00:52:30 --> 00:52:33 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, uh, I'm m. Probably dredging up
00:52:33 --> 00:52:34 the same joke I used four and a half years
00:52:34 --> 00:52:36 ago, but there's a lot of. There's a lot of
00:52:36 --> 00:52:39 doesn't matter in astronomy as well.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:43 See, I can hear you got a.
00:52:43 --> 00:52:44 Professor Fred Watson: No, not a majority there. Yeah.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:49 Andrew Dunkley: Um, but, yeah, antimatter stars are
00:52:49 --> 00:52:51 right up there with white holes. Uh, we've
00:52:51 --> 00:52:54 never seen one. But there's, you know,
00:52:54 --> 00:52:57 there's certain elements of
00:52:57 --> 00:53:00 science that think these things exist. Uh,
00:53:01 --> 00:53:04 but we've just never found the direct
00:53:04 --> 00:53:05 evidence or proof, have we?
00:53:06 --> 00:53:08 Professor Fred Watson: No, that's. Excuse me. That's correct.
00:53:08 --> 00:53:11 Um, just along those lines, there's, uh,
00:53:11 --> 00:53:14 something that cropped, um, up about a week
00:53:14 --> 00:53:16 ago or two weeks ago. Um, it's a
00:53:16 --> 00:53:19 gravitational wave event which I think
00:53:19 --> 00:53:22 dates back to 2019. And you know,
00:53:22 --> 00:53:25 gravitational waves measured by LIGO and uh,
00:53:25 --> 00:53:28 Kagra and Virgo, the three big gravitational
00:53:28 --> 00:53:31 wave detectors in the world. Ah, they, um,
00:53:32 --> 00:53:34 uh, this particular and most, most
00:53:34 --> 00:53:36 gravitational waves come from either neutron
00:53:36 --> 00:53:38 stars colliding or neutron stars colliding
00:53:38 --> 00:53:40 with black holes or black holes colliding.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:41 And they always have a characteristic
00:53:41 --> 00:53:44 signature. They spiral together and then when
00:53:44 --> 00:53:46 they come together at the end, they produce
00:53:46 --> 00:53:48 this characteristic chirp, um,
00:53:49 --> 00:53:51 which is when they merge. Um,
00:53:52 --> 00:53:55 and that usually lasts a few Seconds that,
00:53:55 --> 00:53:58 um, run up to the chirp. Uh, but this
00:53:58 --> 00:54:01 one in 2019 only lasted, I think it was a
00:54:01 --> 00:54:03 tenth of a second. Uh, and
00:54:05 --> 00:54:08 one interpretation of that is that,
00:54:08 --> 00:54:11 uh, it was two very massive
00:54:11 --> 00:54:13 black holes. I think that's the way around.
00:54:13 --> 00:54:14 It goes. Could be the other way around.
00:54:15 --> 00:54:18 Anyway, um, a, uh, recent paper
00:54:18 --> 00:54:20 from China, and I think this was two weeks
00:54:20 --> 00:54:23 ago, proposed that you could get nearly
00:54:23 --> 00:54:26 the same modelling, which, because they model
00:54:26 --> 00:54:28 these gravitational wave phenomena, if,
00:54:29 --> 00:54:31 uh, it turned out that what you were looking
00:54:31 --> 00:54:34 at was not colliding black holes but a
00:54:34 --> 00:54:37 collapsing wormhole. Um, and
00:54:37 --> 00:54:39 that's the first evidence that I think
00:54:39 --> 00:54:41 anybody has put forward for the existence of
00:54:41 --> 00:54:44 wormholes. But it's still very
00:54:44 --> 00:54:47 conjectural because the, um, likelihood, you
00:54:47 --> 00:54:49 know, the model of just two black holes
00:54:49 --> 00:54:51 colliding actually fits the data slightly
00:54:51 --> 00:54:53 better than the model of the collapsing
00:54:53 --> 00:54:55 wormhole. But people are still looking at
00:54:55 --> 00:54:57 these things as they are for white holes and,
00:54:58 --> 00:55:00 um, I hope also for antimatter stars.
00:55:00 --> 00:55:03 Andrew Dunkley: Yes. Yeah, well, um, I
00:55:03 --> 00:55:06 suppose there's so much to consider in the
00:55:06 --> 00:55:09 universe that some things just don't get the
00:55:09 --> 00:55:11 amount of time and attention they probably
00:55:11 --> 00:55:14 deserve. But the workforce
00:55:14 --> 00:55:16 is spread so thin in astronomy and space
00:55:16 --> 00:55:19 science, I would imagine so, um,
00:55:21 --> 00:55:22 it's hard to deal with everything.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:24 Professor Fred Watson: With everything. That's right. There's
00:55:24 --> 00:55:26 certainly enough questions to keep us busy
00:55:26 --> 00:55:28 for a long time in the world of astronomy.
00:55:28 --> 00:55:29 Absolutely.
00:55:29 --> 00:55:32 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. All right, Mark, thank you. Hope all
00:55:32 --> 00:55:34 is well in Canada.
00:55:34 --> 00:55:37 Our final question comes from Dave. And, uh,
00:55:37 --> 00:55:40 Dave is from Inverel in, uh, northern New
00:55:40 --> 00:55:42 South Wales, Australia. As someone who is
00:55:42 --> 00:55:44 lucky enough to enjoy fairly low light
00:55:44 --> 00:55:47 pollution where I live, I like to
00:55:47 --> 00:55:49 attempt some nighttime photography now and
00:55:49 --> 00:55:52 then. Lately I've been using the nightcap
00:55:52 --> 00:55:55 app on my phone. I've got that one as well.
00:55:55 --> 00:55:58 Uh, with, uh, the meteor setting, he says
00:55:58 --> 00:56:00 to try and capture some meteor photos.
00:56:01 --> 00:56:03 Uh, I find the best time to see a great
00:56:03 --> 00:56:05 falling star is just as I'm getting the phone
00:56:05 --> 00:56:07 set up, ready to start shooting.
00:56:09 --> 00:56:11 Uh, just wondering if you have any advice for
00:56:11 --> 00:56:14 when to try and capture a meteor on camera.
00:56:15 --> 00:56:17 Example, uh, time of night, direction, etc.
00:56:17 --> 00:56:20 Or should I just, uh, wait until a good
00:56:20 --> 00:56:23 meteor shower turns up? Uh, and how many
00:56:23 --> 00:56:26 meteors would we expect to see collide in
00:56:26 --> 00:56:28 our atmos, uh, collide with our atmosphere on
00:56:28 --> 00:56:31 any given night? Um, also
00:56:31 --> 00:56:33 great, uh, to hear you back, Andrew, and
00:56:33 --> 00:56:36 hearing. Enjoy, uh, hearing your travels, uh,
00:56:36 --> 00:56:39 when you talk of Iceland, it makes me very
00:56:39 --> 00:56:39 keen to return.
00:56:39 --> 00:56:42 Can I ask which company you cruised with,
00:56:42 --> 00:56:44 Dave? From Inverel. Yes you can.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:49 Uh, the uh, the answer is uh, Princess.
00:56:49 --> 00:56:52 It was Princess Cruises. Uh, we made the
00:56:52 --> 00:56:55 news early in the cruise when we got smashed
00:56:55 --> 00:56:58 just southwest, um, corner of Australia by a
00:56:58 --> 00:57:00 squall that knocked the ship over, not
00:57:00 --> 00:57:02 completely seven degree list, uh, which
00:57:02 --> 00:57:05 we took three hours to straighten up. I had
00:57:05 --> 00:57:07 to go up to the bridge and help the captain
00:57:07 --> 00:57:09 by, you know, using my weight to stand at
00:57:09 --> 00:57:12 the. No, I didn't. Uh, but uh, it was um,
00:57:12 --> 00:57:14 yeah, pretty uh, hair raising for a while
00:57:14 --> 00:57:16 there. Uh, we made the news all over
00:57:16 --> 00:57:18 Australia apparently. But um, yeah, it was
00:57:18 --> 00:57:21 the Princess Cruise Line. Uh, and we've been
00:57:21 --> 00:57:23 with them many times on other cruises and
00:57:23 --> 00:57:25 they're uh, I, I really enjoy them.
00:57:26 --> 00:57:28 Uh, they probably uh, it's
00:57:28 --> 00:57:30 debatable but I think food wise they're
00:57:30 --> 00:57:33 probably the best. But yes, um,
00:57:34 --> 00:57:37 now, and you mentioned the. Sorry, go on.
00:57:37 --> 00:57:38 Professor Fred Watson: I was just going to say if you want to avoid
00:57:39 --> 00:57:41 uh, the rigours of sea travel, you could come
00:57:41 --> 00:57:43 with Dark Sky Traveller. We go up to Iceland
00:57:43 --> 00:57:45 pretty regularly too. Yes. Well there's a
00:57:45 --> 00:57:46 thought. Yeah.
00:57:46 --> 00:57:49 Andrew Dunkley: Um, yeah. So the downside of cruising is it's
00:57:49 --> 00:57:52 slow. Yeah, I mean it's very relaxing. But if
00:57:52 --> 00:57:54 you do want to get somewhere in a hurry, it's
00:57:54 --> 00:57:57 um, probably not the way to do it. Um,
00:57:58 --> 00:58:00 and uh, Dave also mentioned the nightcap
00:58:00 --> 00:58:03 app. Uh, I do have that one on my phone. I
00:58:03 --> 00:58:05 haven't had an opportunity to really use it
00:58:05 --> 00:58:08 because it uh, there's too much
00:58:08 --> 00:58:09 light around here.
00:58:10 --> 00:58:12 Professor Fred Watson: What does it do, Andrew? What's the, what's
00:58:12 --> 00:58:14 the purpose of the nightcap?
00:58:14 --> 00:58:16 Andrew Dunkley: I haven't got my phone with me. But uh, you
00:58:16 --> 00:58:18 can preset it to
00:58:19 --> 00:58:20 photograph in low light
00:58:22 --> 00:58:25 and you can either put it in manual
00:58:25 --> 00:58:27 mode or you can have this series of presets
00:58:27 --> 00:58:29 where you can, if you know what you want to
00:58:29 --> 00:58:32 photograph, it will set up the phone
00:58:32 --> 00:58:35 to create the exact situation you need to
00:58:35 --> 00:58:37 take that particular photograph. It's really,
00:58:37 --> 00:58:40 it's really good software. Um, but I
00:58:40 --> 00:58:43 haven't really had a chance to use it
00:58:43 --> 00:58:45 properly. But uh, it can do time lapse and
00:58:45 --> 00:58:46 all sorts of things.
00:58:46 --> 00:58:46 Professor Fred Watson: It's.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:49 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah, it's really good gear. Uh, so
00:58:49 --> 00:58:52 yeah, when and where and
00:58:52 --> 00:58:54 how to take low light
00:58:55 --> 00:58:56 photographs, Fred Watson.
00:58:56 --> 00:58:59 Professor Fred Watson: Of meteors. That was a crucial
00:58:59 --> 00:59:01 thing. Yeah, from, from Dave's question. And
00:59:01 --> 00:59:04 yeah, so Dave up in Verralle will have
00:59:04 --> 00:59:07 um, pretty easy access to dark skies.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:09 Andrew Dunkley: Uh, yeah, that's, you know why? You know why?
00:59:09 --> 00:59:11 Because they're not putting the electricity
00:59:11 --> 00:59:13 on up there for another 10 years.
00:59:14 --> 00:59:15 Professor Fred Watson: Okay.
00:59:15 --> 00:59:17 Andrew Dunkley: Sorry. Everyone asks,
00:59:18 --> 00:59:20 in the 30 odd years I've lived here, people
00:59:20 --> 00:59:21 have often asked, do you have electricity
00:59:21 --> 00:59:24 where you are? Um, so I couldn't help that
00:59:24 --> 00:59:25 joke.
00:59:25 --> 00:59:27 Professor Fred Watson: No. Well, you do. Uh, we did include a
00:59:27 --> 00:59:28 bourbon as well, but we were at the end of
00:59:28 --> 00:59:31 the line and uh, so if ever there was a
00:59:31 --> 00:59:32 thunderstorm, we usually left our
00:59:32 --> 00:59:33 electricity.
00:59:33 --> 00:59:35 Andrew Dunkley: You were gone. Yeah, we had that problem the
00:59:35 --> 00:59:37 first 15 years we lived here.
00:59:37 --> 00:59:39 Professor Fred Watson: All right, yeah. Um, but they do have
00:59:39 --> 00:59:42 electricity in Varel and they also have dark
00:59:42 --> 00:59:44 skies, relatively easily accessible by just
00:59:44 --> 00:59:47 driving up a few kilometres further up
00:59:47 --> 00:59:49 the highway one way or the other.
00:59:49 --> 00:59:52 Um, so meteors. Um,
00:59:52 --> 00:59:54 yeah, Dave's question, how many meteors are
00:59:54 --> 00:59:57 coming in? Uh, quite a large number. We think
00:59:57 --> 01:00:00 it's something like 100 tonnes, 50 to 100
01:00:00 --> 01:00:03 tonnes a day meteoritic material hits the
01:00:03 --> 01:00:05 atmosphere that's worldwide. Uh, but that
01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 means there are billions of meteors streaking
01:00:08 --> 01:00:09 through the atmosphere because most of them
01:00:09 --> 01:00:12 are specks of dust. Um, and they
01:00:12 --> 01:00:14 can, yeah, sporadic meteors as they're
01:00:14 --> 01:00:16 called. They can whiz through the earth's
01:00:16 --> 01:00:18 atmosphere at any time. People talking about
01:00:18 --> 01:00:21 this stargazing I was doing at uh, Sea
01:00:21 --> 01:00:24 Lake, uh, in rural Victoria last week,
01:00:24 --> 01:00:26 um, quite a few people were spotting meteors
01:00:26 --> 01:00:28 as they flashed through the sky. I was
01:00:28 --> 01:00:30 looking at screens so I missed most of them.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:33 Um, but, uh, probably
01:00:34 --> 01:00:35 the time to
01:00:37 --> 01:00:39 uh, really concentrate on,
01:00:39 --> 01:00:41 um, uh, a few serious. And I think you kind
01:00:41 --> 01:00:44 of need an all sky lens effectively for good
01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 meteor photography. Um, um,
01:00:47 --> 01:00:49 uh, the new generation of
01:00:50 --> 01:00:53 phones do have very wide angle lenses,
01:00:53 --> 01:00:55 but they're not fisheye in the sense that you
01:00:55 --> 01:00:58 can see the sky. Um, but they're wide enough
01:00:59 --> 01:01:01 probably to use. The snag
01:01:01 --> 01:01:03 with them is that they've got a low,
01:01:05 --> 01:01:07 uh, aperture. So a high
01:01:07 --> 01:01:10 focal ratio, uh, the
01:01:10 --> 01:01:13 ratio of the focal length to aperture and
01:01:13 --> 01:01:15 what you need is a low focal ratio to give
01:01:15 --> 01:01:17 you fast imaging. It's what we call a fast
01:01:17 --> 01:01:19 lens. Whereas these wide angle ones tend not
01:01:19 --> 01:01:22 to have that. Uh, and so you're tossing up,
01:01:22 --> 01:01:25 you know, the relative merits of a very wide
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 angle view or likely
01:01:28 --> 01:01:31 to capture more meteors or a narrow angle of
01:01:31 --> 01:01:33 view but greater sensitivity, so you'll see
01:01:33 --> 01:01:36 fainter meteors. So, um, that's,
01:01:36 --> 01:01:38 you know, taking all that into consideration.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:40 Um, I haven't tried meteor photography with
01:01:40 --> 01:01:42 my phone. I've done a lot of aurora borealis
01:01:42 --> 01:01:44 photography with it and that works really
01:01:44 --> 01:01:46 well because they're sensitive. But it will
01:01:46 --> 01:01:49 be an interesting thing to try. Uh, it's the
01:01:49 --> 01:01:50 fact that you need A long. You need the
01:01:50 --> 01:01:52 shutter open for a long time. But I guess
01:01:52 --> 01:01:54 what you can do is just keep on taking
01:01:55 --> 01:01:58 short snapshots. Um, point I
01:01:58 --> 01:02:00 was going to get to is when you think about
01:02:00 --> 01:02:03 the Earth, uh, uh, in its orbit around the
01:02:03 --> 01:02:06 sun. Uh, the forward facing
01:02:06 --> 01:02:08 side of the orbit is where you are after
01:02:08 --> 01:02:11 midnight. So after midnight
01:02:11 --> 01:02:14 means that you're on the leading edge of the
01:02:14 --> 01:02:16 Earth and that's where you're going to get
01:02:16 --> 01:02:19 the most meteors, basically. Uh, as
01:02:19 --> 01:02:21 the Earth ploughs through the various clouds
01:02:21 --> 01:02:23 of dust, you've got meteor showers which come
01:02:23 --> 01:02:26 from big clouds of dust that the Earth goes
01:02:26 --> 01:02:28 through. Uh, but these things are always best
01:02:28 --> 01:02:31 seen in the early morning, um, when you're
01:02:31 --> 01:02:34 on the side after midnight. So that's the
01:02:34 --> 01:02:36 best advice I can give. I'd be interested to
01:02:36 --> 01:02:37 hear how you get home, Dave, and uh, what
01:02:37 --> 01:02:40 sort of results you might get. Yeah, yeah.
01:02:40 --> 01:02:42 Andrew Dunkley: And if you do get a couple of good ones, send
01:02:42 --> 01:02:44 them in and we'll um, we'll post them on our
01:02:44 --> 01:02:46 Facebook page or you can post them yourself
01:02:46 --> 01:02:48 on the Facebook group, whatever you like. Um,
01:02:49 --> 01:02:50 love to see what you come up with. We do get,
01:02:50 --> 01:02:53 um, some great astrophotography
01:02:53 --> 01:02:55 from uh, Space Arts listeners on the Facebook
01:02:56 --> 01:02:58 group sometimes. So, yeah, um, more than
01:02:58 --> 01:03:01 happy to uh, have
01:03:01 --> 01:03:03 you uh, post them on that
01:03:04 --> 01:03:06 page, Dave, and hopefully that will help. But
01:03:06 --> 01:03:08 uh, yeah, the idea of having to get up and do
01:03:08 --> 01:03:10 it in the middle of the night, not, not
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 appealing. But, uh, that's life in astronomy,
01:03:12 --> 01:03:13 isn't it, Fred Watson?
01:03:13 --> 01:03:14 Professor Fred Watson: It is a bit, yeah.
01:03:16 --> 01:03:18 Andrew Dunkley: Yeah. All right, Dave, thanks very much for
01:03:18 --> 01:03:20 your question. Don't forget, if you've got a
01:03:20 --> 01:03:22 question, send it in to us because we'd love
01:03:22 --> 01:03:25 to try, uh, and answer it. No guarantees of
01:03:25 --> 01:03:27 course. Uh, but you go to our website,
01:03:27 --> 01:03:29 spacenutspodcast.com
01:03:29 --> 01:03:32 spacenuts.IO click on the AMA tab and
01:03:32 --> 01:03:35 you can send uh, uh, questions there, audio
01:03:35 --> 01:03:37 or text. Just remember to tell us who you are
01:03:37 --> 01:03:40 and where you're from and we'll do the rest.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:43 Or Huw in the studio will, if he ever turns
01:03:43 --> 01:03:46 up again, because he didn't turn up today.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:49 I don't know what he was doing. Probably
01:03:49 --> 01:03:51 trying astrophotography in the middle of the
01:03:51 --> 01:03:54 day. Just never listens to us.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:56 That's his problem. Uh, Fred Watson, thank
01:03:56 --> 01:03:59 you as always and uh, bon voyage.
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 Have a safe journey. Enjoy uh, your time in,
01:04:02 --> 01:04:05 uh, in Japan and Ireland and the UK
01:04:05 --> 01:04:08 and uh, yeah, and look forward to hearing
01:04:08 --> 01:04:11 about your travels when you get back. And we
01:04:11 --> 01:04:13 will welcome Jon, uh, Horner from the
01:04:13 --> 01:04:16 University of Southern Queensland. Uh, with
01:04:17 --> 01:04:20 Space, um, nuts for the foreseeable future.
01:04:20 --> 01:04:22 So take care, Fred Watson, and thank you.
01:04:22 --> 01:04:25 Professor Fred Watson: Thank you, Andrew. Uh, I'll miss you all.
01:04:25 --> 01:04:27 But, um, I'll be glad to come back and, uh,
01:04:27 --> 01:04:29 talk to you sometime before Christmas.
01:04:29 --> 01:04:31 Andrew Dunkley: Okay, Catch you then. Professor, uh,
01:04:31 --> 01:04:33 Fred Watson Watson, Astronomer at large. And
01:04:33 --> 01:04:35 from me, Andrew Dunkley. Thanks again for
01:04:35 --> 01:04:36 your company. We'll see you on the very next
01:04:36 --> 01:04:39 episode of Space Nuts. Until then, bye. Bye.