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Exploring Titan and the Evolution of the Artemis Program
In this thought-provoking episode of Space Nuts, hosts Heidi Campo and Professor Fred Watson embark on an exciting journey through the mysteries of Saturn's largest moon, Titan, and the latest developments in NASA's Artemis program. From the strange atmospheric phenomena on Titan to the innovative design of the new Artemis control room, this episode is packed with insights that will ignite your cosmic curiosity.
Episode Highlights:
- Mission to Titan: The episode kicks off with a riveting discussion about Titan's unique characteristics, including its thick atmosphere and the discovery of a subsurface ocean. Fred explains how Titan's atmosphere rotates independently from its surface, leading to fascinating implications for future exploration missions like NASA's Dragonfly.
- NASA's Artemis Program: The conversation then shifts to the recent inauguration of the Artemis Science Evaluation Room at the Johnson Space Center in Houston. Fred describes the innovative design of the new control room and the importance of effective team dynamics for the success of future lunar missions.
- Whale Communication and Extraterrestrial Life: The hosts delve into a captivating study on humpback whales and their use of bubble rings, exploring the intriguing possibility of communication between species. This discussion leads to broader thoughts on how we might connect with extraterrestrial intelligences in the future.
- Listener Questions: As always, the episode features listener questions that spark engaging discussions. From the effects of gravity on celestial bodies to the nature of light and time travel, Fred and Heidi tackle a variety of topics that deepen our understanding of the universe.
For more Space Nuts, including our continually updating newsfeed and to listen to all our episodes, visit our website. Follow us on social media at SpaceNutsPod on Facebook, X, YouTube Music Music Music, Tumblr, Instagram, and TikTok. We love engaging with our community, so be sure to drop us a message or comment on your favorite platform.
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Stay curious, keep looking up, and join us next time for more stellar insights and cosmic wonders. Until then, clear skies and happy stargazing.
(00:00) Welcome to Space Nuts with Heidi Campo and Fred Watson
(01:20) Discussion on Titan's unique atmospheric phenomena
(15:00) Insights into NASA's Artemis Science Evaluation Room
(25:30) Exploring whale communication and extraterrestrial life
(35:00) Listener Ash questions on gravity, light, and time travel
For commercial-free versions of Space Nuts, join us on Patreon, Supercast, Apple Podcasts, or become a supporter here: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/space-nuts-astronomy-insights-cosmic-discoveries--2631155/support
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 Heidi Campo: All right, Fred, let's light this candle. This
00:00:03 --> 00:00:05 is the another episode of
00:00:06 --> 00:00:07 space nuts.
00:00:07 --> 00:00:09 Professor Fred Watson: 15 seconds. Guidance is internal.
00:00:10 --> 00:00:11 10, 9.
00:00:12 --> 00:00:14 Professor Fred Watson: Ignition sequence start. Space nuts. 5,
00:00:14 --> 00:00:17 4, 3, 2. 1. 2, 3, 4, 5,
00:00:17 --> 00:00:20 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Space
00:00:20 --> 00:00:22 nuts. Astronauts report it feels good.
00:00:23 --> 00:00:26 Heidi Campo: And I am your host for, for this,
00:00:26 --> 00:00:29 American summer, Australian winter, Heidi Campo.
00:00:29 --> 00:00:32 And joining us is Professor Fred Watson,
00:00:32 --> 00:00:34 astronomer at large. Hey Fred.
00:00:34 --> 00:00:37 Professor Fred Watson: Good to see you. Heidi. I can't remember which astronaut
00:00:37 --> 00:00:40 that light this candle quotes come from. Do you remember which
00:00:40 --> 00:00:43 one it was? It was one of the early days of
00:00:43 --> 00:00:44 spaceflight, I think.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:47 Heidi Campo: Definitely early days. And you're testing
00:00:47 --> 00:00:48 my history and I'm failing.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:50 Professor Fred Watson: It's all right.
00:00:50 --> 00:00:53 Heidi Campo: Fred and I, we discovered, a
00:00:53 --> 00:00:56 new feature. So our, recording software is
00:00:56 --> 00:00:59 updated and now it does a very exciting countdown
00:00:59 --> 00:01:01 for us. So that was, that was kind of fun, a way to
00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 launch into the episode, so to speak.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:07 Professor Fred Watson: Yep, we, we lit the candle.
00:01:07 --> 00:01:09 That's the main thing we did.
00:01:09 --> 00:01:11 Heidi Campo: We did. And so let's, let's, let's set this off.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:14 So our destination today for this first
00:01:14 --> 00:01:17 episode is we're going on a mission
00:01:18 --> 00:01:20 to some of the, outer planets
00:01:21 --> 00:01:24 do we call. Well, Titan's not a planet, but, it's a
00:01:24 --> 00:01:26 moon around Saturn. Saturn is a
00:01:27 --> 00:01:28 outer planet.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:31 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right. One of the four gas giants in
00:01:31 --> 00:01:33 the solar system. The second one out, for
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 many, many centuries, it was thought
00:01:36 --> 00:01:39 to be the edge of the sun's family
00:01:39 --> 00:01:42 of planets, even before the sun was known
00:01:42 --> 00:01:45 to be at the center. Because it's the furthest of the
00:01:45 --> 00:01:48 naked eye planets, the ones that you can see with the unaided eye.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 M. Uranus just makes it actually
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 into the, unaided eye category. But you
00:01:54 --> 00:01:57 really need to know what you're looking at and you need good eyesight and
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 the dark sight. I've never seen Uranus with my
00:02:00 --> 00:02:03 unaided eye. Anyway, Saturn out there, one and
00:02:03 --> 00:02:05 a half billion kilometers from the sun, doing its
00:02:05 --> 00:02:08 thing. And of course from 2004
00:02:09 --> 00:02:12 to 2017, Saturn was the star
00:02:12 --> 00:02:14 of the Cassini show, the Cassini
00:02:14 --> 00:02:17 mission, I think one of the most productive space
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 missions ever. NASA, with
00:02:20 --> 00:02:23 an association with esa, the European Space
00:02:23 --> 00:02:26 Agency, this fabulous mission. the spacecraft
00:02:26 --> 00:02:28 was in orbit around Saturn for 13 years
00:02:28 --> 00:02:30 doing marvelous things before it eventually
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 dived into the Saturnian atmosphere. And I think
00:02:34 --> 00:02:37 some of the most exciting stuff, it's actually hard to
00:02:37 --> 00:02:39 pick what was the most exciting stuff to come out of the
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 Cassini mission? the rings, the moons, the
00:02:42 --> 00:02:45 planet itself. But, for My money, Titan
00:02:46 --> 00:02:49 really stole the show, actually,
00:02:49 --> 00:02:51 I should say with Enceladus as a close second. Enceladus
00:02:51 --> 00:02:54 was where we discovered geysers of ice coming out of
00:02:54 --> 00:02:57 the, out of the, subsurface ocean.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:00 But Titan, such a weird, weird world. And we
00:03:00 --> 00:03:03 knew it was weird before Cassini got there because
00:03:03 --> 00:03:06 there was evidence, from radar
00:03:06 --> 00:03:09 measurements from Earth that there was very smooth
00:03:09 --> 00:03:11 surfaces on Titan. And it was
00:03:11 --> 00:03:14 suspected that Titan would have lakes and
00:03:14 --> 00:03:17 seas, not of liquid water. Because
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 the temperature out there is about minus 190.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22 That's the surface temperature. 190 Celsius.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 So should specify the unit, shouldn't I?
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 And indeed it is known to have
00:03:28 --> 00:03:31 lakes and seas, of liquid natural gas,
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 ethane and methane, which are predominantly in the Northern
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 hemisphere. One of the other things
00:03:37 --> 00:03:40 that was an early discovery, about Titan
00:03:40 --> 00:03:43 and this kind of links to the story that we've got at the moment,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 was that the surface,
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 of the planet is decoupled from the
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 interior. by that I mean that
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 the rocky core of Titan
00:03:55 --> 00:03:58 rotates, in a certain way, but the
00:03:58 --> 00:04:01 surface actually swishes around a bit.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 you're kidding me. That's the conclusive
00:04:04 --> 00:04:07 proof that you've got a global ocean underneath
00:04:07 --> 00:04:10 the surface. It's a liquid interface between the
00:04:10 --> 00:04:12 surface and the rock. But if you're on
00:04:12 --> 00:04:15 Titan, your longitude changes
00:04:15 --> 00:04:18 without you moving because the
00:04:18 --> 00:04:20 surface of the ice moon is
00:04:20 --> 00:04:21 moving.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:24 Heidi Campo: So it's basically just a giant, what do they call those,
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 the little magic balls that you shake up. And it's got the
00:04:27 --> 00:04:30 little globe inside that rotates until
00:04:30 --> 00:04:32 the future. It's just a giant.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I've seen one of those, but I can't remember what it's called.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 Heidi Campo: The little, I think just the magic ball.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:40 Yeah. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. That's such a,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:43 that's such an incredible fact. So it's not
00:04:43 --> 00:04:44 frozen then?
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 Professor Fred Watson: The ocean's not. No, that's right. The surface is. And we
00:04:47 --> 00:04:50 don't know how thick the ice layer of Titan's surface is.
00:04:50 --> 00:04:53 It's probably many tens of kilometers. but underneath
00:04:53 --> 00:04:56 that, I mean, Titan is a big world. It's bigger than the planet Mercury.
00:04:56 --> 00:04:58 It's the second biggest satellite in the solar system.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:02 and so, a, significant rocky core and this
00:05:02 --> 00:05:05 ocean, which, you know, I don't think we've got any real
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 estimates of what its depth is, but it's again measured in,
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 tens or perhaps even. Sorry, yeah, tens
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 or tens of Kilometers is probably the best, best guess for
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 something like that. Maybe even hundreds. anyway the,
00:05:18 --> 00:05:20 this, the reason why this links to the present
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 story is that there's been a new
00:05:23 --> 00:05:26 analysis of of
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 the spinning of Titan
00:05:30 --> 00:05:32 and its atmosphere. Titan has
00:05:32 --> 00:05:35 a thick atmosphere. It's 50% higher
00:05:35 --> 00:05:38 atmospheric pressure than we have here on Earth. So we
00:05:38 --> 00:05:41 probably feel like we were, I
00:05:41 --> 00:05:44 read yesterday that we'd feel as though we were in a
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 depth of 5 meters. 5 meters of water,
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 what's that? 6 meters is 20ft.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:51 Heidi Campo: So you've so an average used in summer.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:56 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, probably. Yes, that's probably right. so
00:05:56 --> 00:05:59 it's got this high pressure atmosphere, mostly nitrogen
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 and methane, and they have clouds and
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 rain and of liquid natural gas. It's
00:06:04 --> 00:06:07 a bizarre, a bizarre sort of
00:06:07 --> 00:06:10 parallel with the Earth where water is the Earth's
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 climatic cycle. We think it's methane and ethane on
00:06:13 --> 00:06:16 Titan. but the atmosphere has
00:06:16 --> 00:06:19 now been shown to circulate
00:06:19 --> 00:06:22 around Titan not
00:06:22 --> 00:06:24 in sync with the surface like our
00:06:24 --> 00:06:27 atmosphere is because we stand on the surface and we
00:06:27 --> 00:06:30 don't feel any wind because the atmosphere is moving with the
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 rotation of the Earth Titans actually
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 the atmosphere rotates faster than
00:06:36 --> 00:06:38 Titan does. So it's
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 decoupled from the ah, you know from the
00:06:41 --> 00:06:44 surface which is a very strange phenomenon
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 in itself. I might give a quote actually
00:06:47 --> 00:06:50 this, this story is actually the one I've read
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 is on Space.com. it's an article
00:06:53 --> 00:06:56 written by Victoria Corliss. Very nicely done.
00:06:57 --> 00:07:00 so it's basically data
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 from the Cassini mission reanalyzing it.
00:07:04 --> 00:07:07 and Lucy Wright who's the lead
00:07:07 --> 00:07:09 author, not the leth order, the lead author
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 of the new research and is at the School of Earth
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14 Scientists at the University of Bristol in the U.K.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:18 Lucy said the behavior of Titan's atmosphere
00:07:18 --> 00:07:21 tilt is very strange. We
00:07:21 --> 00:07:23 think some event in the past may have knocked the
00:07:23 --> 00:07:26 atmosphere off its spin axis causing it to
00:07:26 --> 00:07:29 wobble. So not only does it not rotate in sync
00:07:29 --> 00:07:32 with the surface but it also wobbles. and
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 m, basically that's the best guess that it was
00:07:37 --> 00:07:39 some sort of impact or some
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 you know, event in the in the
00:07:43 --> 00:07:46 atmospheric history of Titan that's caused
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 not just this out of sync rotation but
00:07:49 --> 00:07:52 also a tilt, a wobble of the
00:07:52 --> 00:07:53 of the atmosphere.
00:07:55 --> 00:07:58 Heidi Campo: that's incredible. If I
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01 was Andrew and I had the soundboard I would insert the
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 little jingle from the X Files right there.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:05 Do do do do.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah well, that's right. Well, yes, very strange. He
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 sometimes does that. We manage to keep him under control, though.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:13 That's all right. But yes, it is. It's
00:08:13 --> 00:08:16 weird. and, you know, it's a extensive
00:08:16 --> 00:08:18 study. Ah, one of the.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 Perhaps one of the consequences of this though, is,
00:08:22 --> 00:08:25 if the atmosphere's, not
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 moving in sync with the surface, then it means
00:08:28 --> 00:08:31 you've got high winds on the surface.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:34 You're going to experience high winds. and that has
00:08:34 --> 00:08:35 not really been,
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 deduced before. Although there is evidence
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 of wind ripples on, these lakes and
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46 seas, the radar reflections
00:08:46 --> 00:08:48 sometimes get very bright, which means
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 you've got radar bouncing off a rough surface. If
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 you get a very, faint radar
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 reflection, you're looking at a smooth surface because most of
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 the, radar has been reflected off in a different direction.
00:09:00 --> 00:09:03 it's like a mirror surface that will give a very dark radar
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 reflection. So a bright radar reflection
00:09:06 --> 00:09:08 corresponds to a rough surface. And that has been seen
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 on some of the lakes and seas of Titan. So maybe that itself
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 was a hint that, the winds are
00:09:14 --> 00:09:16 blowing more quickly than we thought.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 But what's really at stake here,
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 and this brings us back to NASA, the
00:09:22 --> 00:09:24 Dragonfly mission, which is a
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 quadcopter, that is planned for
00:09:28 --> 00:09:31 exploration of Saturn's moon Titan
00:09:31 --> 00:09:34 sometime in the next decade, sometime in the 2000 and 30s.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:38 That is going to be a bit like ingenuity was
00:09:38 --> 00:09:40 with, perseverance. It's going to be
00:09:40 --> 00:09:43 a fantastic tool for exploring
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 Titan, for exploring its surface, for
00:09:46 --> 00:09:48 investigating maybe what these seas look like.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:52 I don't know whether Dragonfly will dip its toes in the water, but
00:09:52 --> 00:09:55 it's, going to tell us a lot more than we
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 know already. But here's the problem. If we've got much
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 faster winds than we thought we had, and you're launching a
00:10:00 --> 00:10:03 quadcopter into the atmosphere, then that could
00:10:03 --> 00:10:06 give us all kinds of problems for the navigation
00:10:06 --> 00:10:09 of the Dragonfly, drone, which might
00:10:09 --> 00:10:12 lead to difficulties in actually making
00:10:12 --> 00:10:15 the mission, succeed in all its goals.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 you could argue the same thing with Mars. We know that we
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 get high winds on Mars and that's what causes the dust
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 storms. Ingenuity managed to cope with that. But
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 remember, the atmosphere on Mars is only,
00:10:27 --> 00:10:30 it's less than 1% of the atmospheric pressure on Earth.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:33 Whereas here we're talking about an atmosphere that's 50%
00:10:33 --> 00:10:36 thicker than the Earth's atmosphere. So there's probably more
00:10:36 --> 00:10:37 at stake, I.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:40 Heidi Campo: Think yeah, it was almost,
00:10:40 --> 00:10:42 you almost need to look at more. You know, I'm
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 not, I'm not, an engineer rocket scientist by
00:10:45 --> 00:10:48 a long shot. Far from it, but it almost seems
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 like you would need to look at more amphibious
00:10:51 --> 00:10:53 designs than aerospace designs. And it would
00:10:53 --> 00:10:56 need to be able to navigate in that thick, thick
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 atmosphere. Almost like a, like a sub, like
00:11:00 --> 00:11:02 a submarine in the
00:11:02 --> 00:11:03 air.
00:11:04 --> 00:11:05 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, that's right.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:06 Heidi Campo: I'm thinking of a zeppelin.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 Professor Fred Watson: Yes. a submersible zeppelin. That's what you need. I mean,
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 something like a zeppelin will get blown around
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 even more because they've got such a big surface area.
00:11:16 --> 00:11:18 But your thinking's right, Heidi, because
00:11:19 --> 00:11:22 back in the early 2000s, when we were first
00:11:22 --> 00:11:24 discovering the, this extraordinary
00:11:24 --> 00:11:26 surface landscape on Titan,
00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 with a surface that's made of ice as hard as rock,
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 but in that rock there are depressions that have these seas and
00:11:33 --> 00:11:36 lakes. when we're first discovering that, people were suggesting
00:11:36 --> 00:11:38 we've got to send a submersible to
00:11:39 --> 00:11:41 Titan, we've got to send a submarine up there to
00:11:41 --> 00:11:44 explore what's underneath the surface of these lakes. Some of them
00:11:44 --> 00:11:47 are quite deep. I think, if I remember rightly, the deepest one
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 is about 180 meters. That's a really
00:11:50 --> 00:11:53 significant depth. and people
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 have conjectured that there may be life
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 forms in them, which use
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 liquid natural gas, ethane and methane
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 as its working fluid. Unlike every
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 life form on Earth, which uses water as its working fluid.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 If you've got a world where water's not common
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 because it's frozen solid. but, you've got other
00:12:13 --> 00:12:15 stuff that's a liquid. Maybe, maybe, just
00:12:15 --> 00:12:18 maybe you've got weird alien species that
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 use liquid natural gas, to make themselves
00:12:21 --> 00:12:22 work.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 Heidi Campo: Yeah. Ah, there's just, there's so much, there's so much to discover out
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 there. And I think we're, you know, I,
00:12:29 --> 00:12:31 I listened to the show for a long time and I've been helping
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 out, for a little while now. But it's interesting. It seems like there
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 is definitely an uptick in the
00:12:37 --> 00:12:40 discovering a potential of life out there. We're really,
00:12:40 --> 00:12:43 we're really learning so much so, so
00:12:43 --> 00:12:44 quickly right now.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:47 Professor Fred Watson: Yep, absolutely. I agree with you. I think that's right.
00:12:48 --> 00:12:51 Heidi Campo: And then, you know, our, our, our next story, you know,
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 we're talking about the, the teams that
00:12:54 --> 00:12:57 are making these discoveries. It's, you know,
00:12:57 --> 00:13:00 we're not just out there. It's not just
00:13:00 --> 00:13:03 one guy in a room observing these things. It is
00:13:03 --> 00:13:06 teams. And I actually, I, I Wish I could have my, my
00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 book sitting next to me. It's downstairs. I would hold it up for those of
00:13:09 --> 00:13:12 you watching. I just recently purchased a few books
00:13:12 --> 00:13:15 about NASA teams and how they
00:13:15 --> 00:13:17 run their teams, their programs and their
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 robust personality profiles and the things that they do to
00:13:21 --> 00:13:21 create these teams.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:24 But our next article is about the NASA Artemis
00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 science team and inaugurating their
00:13:27 --> 00:13:28 flight. Control room.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:31 Professor Fred Watson: That's right, yeah. And this is not very far from where you're sitting
00:13:31 --> 00:13:34 now is it? It's at John Johnson Space center
00:13:34 --> 00:13:37 in Houston. it's. That's where
00:13:37 --> 00:13:40 the Artemis flights are going to be
00:13:40 --> 00:13:43 controlled from. when they are ah, when they carry a human
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 crew. Artemis being,
00:13:46 --> 00:13:48 you know the, the big
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 initiative by NASA, and other
00:13:51 --> 00:13:54 agencies actually to to take
00:13:54 --> 00:13:57 astronauts back to the moon, in the 20,
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 20 twenties. We hope, we hope the first landing will
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 be 2027. It's already been pushed back a few times.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 Artemis 2 is the next mission, probably next
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 year sometime which will be basically a
00:14:09 --> 00:14:11 rerun of Artemis 1 which was a flight around the
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 moon, but this time it will carry a crew of four
00:14:14 --> 00:14:17 astronauts. So what's happened? Well,
00:14:18 --> 00:14:20 at the Johnson Space center in Houston the
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 room which will contain the Mission
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 control for the Artemis 2
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 miss and subsequent ones has
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 been inaugurated. It is technically called the
00:14:33 --> 00:14:36 Science Evaluation Room, the ser. and
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 it's been very cleverly designed
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 to be much more maybe
00:14:42 --> 00:14:44 m. To allow much more integration between
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 the members of the team. you and I, Heidi.
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51 Certainly. I have got in my mind what
00:14:51 --> 00:14:54 the old mission control, basically rooms
00:14:54 --> 00:14:56 or studios look like. I've seen some of them actually
00:14:57 --> 00:14:59 at the Kennedy Space center.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 and you've got these rows of desks with
00:15:02 --> 00:15:05 screens and the rows of desks are
00:15:05 --> 00:15:08 basically like a classroom with rows of
00:15:08 --> 00:15:11 people all doing their thing and talking as
00:15:11 --> 00:15:14 best they can. This is different. This is set up in
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 a sort of U shape with the real
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 nucleus of the people who are key players
00:15:20 --> 00:15:23 in the center and everybody else in this sort of U
00:15:23 --> 00:15:26 shaped ah, array of tables around the edge.
00:15:26 --> 00:15:29 And in order to test it they've actually
00:15:29 --> 00:15:32 undertaken a dummy run. They've basically
00:15:32 --> 00:15:35 simulated the Artemis
00:15:35 --> 00:15:38 2 mission. I don't know whether they did the full 10
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 days of simulation or just the
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 key parts. but they've actually simulated
00:15:43 --> 00:15:46 that mission to give them an
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 idea of how the scientific results will come back
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 to it, in what they call a real
00:15:52 --> 00:15:55 world scenario. and so, you know, the evidence seems to
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 be that it's going well. but I thought that was a very
00:15:58 --> 00:16:01 nice story to relate. people ask us what is happening
00:16:01 --> 00:16:04 with Artemis. It's a process that is quite
00:16:04 --> 00:16:06 slow. it's because
00:16:06 --> 00:16:09 NASA is progressing very carefully with this
00:16:09 --> 00:16:12 mission, as you would expect. but there are
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 news items coming out all the time and this is one of them. And I
00:16:15 --> 00:16:17 think this is a big step forward, in the
00:16:17 --> 00:16:20 Artemis, I won't say Race to the Moon, because it
00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 isn't that, but the Artemis lunar missions.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:27 Heidi Campo: Yeah, the. We're going back. Yeah. You know, and it's so
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 funny, I'm looking at the picture of the room and it's ah,
00:16:29 --> 00:16:32 I have the. I've been to mission Control. It's so
00:16:32 --> 00:16:35 impressive. I didn't know they were going to be decommissioning
00:16:35 --> 00:16:38 that old room and moving to this new room. you
00:16:38 --> 00:16:40 know, it's just like the films you watch growing up, Apollo 13
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 and any of them, there's this big impressive control
00:16:44 --> 00:16:46 center. And this one almost looks like,
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 with everyone sitting around the table with all their
00:16:50 --> 00:16:53 computers. And the other crazy thing,
00:16:53 --> 00:16:56 there's so much more technology in this room, but there's so
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 much less in the room. I think that's
00:16:59 --> 00:17:02 the most impressive thing to me because you think of these older
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 control, centers and there's big, robust
00:17:06 --> 00:17:09 machines. So you're thinking, wow, those big
00:17:09 --> 00:17:11 powerful machines must be doing so much. And these
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 scientists are sitting around with a laptop. So they almost
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 look like college students in a study,
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 in a study, study setting. there's some
00:17:20 --> 00:17:22 big flat screen TVs, but it's,
00:17:23 --> 00:17:25 it's a lot more bare bones than the,
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 classic mission control center. So I think that's the
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 most impressive thing to me is there's
00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 so much more technology in here and
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 power in those machines, but it's just a bunch
00:17:38 --> 00:17:40 of scientists with laptops compared to
00:17:41 --> 00:17:43 the huge room of the big machines.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:47 Professor Fred Watson: I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Heidi. Absolutely. So we're
00:17:47 --> 00:17:49 seeing, you know, 21st century technology,
00:17:50 --> 00:17:51 versus 1960s technology.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:55 and that allows you to be much
00:17:55 --> 00:17:58 more focused on the ergonomics
00:17:58 --> 00:18:00 of this interaction. You know, the way the people
00:18:00 --> 00:18:02 interact with one another and
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 how they communicate. it's probably going to be
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 in some ways a little bit more informal because you do have folks
00:18:09 --> 00:18:12 sitting around looking at their laptops. Hopefully that'll have good
00:18:12 --> 00:18:13 outcomes for the mission.
00:18:15 --> 00:18:18 Heidi Campo: Yeah. And that's something I don't want to get too off track here. But that
00:18:18 --> 00:18:20 is something that. The psychological,
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 component to how NASA forms teams and
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 how any, you know, if you're working in any corporation or
00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 military teams is a very, very
00:18:29 --> 00:18:32 interesting concept that I have. I have been reading a
00:18:32 --> 00:18:34 lot of research on. I actually. I don't know if I mentioned this
00:18:35 --> 00:18:37 on the show. I was a final candidate for
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 the NASA HERA Analog, which
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 is. The HERA stands for Human
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 Exploration Research Analog. so I signed
00:18:46 --> 00:18:49 up to be, a analog astronaut, which is.
00:18:49 --> 00:18:52 You are not a real astronaut. You are a fake
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55 astronaut. You guys can think of it, you're just larping as an astronaut
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 for a predetermined amount of time. but this was
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 a NASA, Johnson Space center analog. So it's inside
00:19:01 --> 00:19:03 of Johnson Space center and is run by NASA.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:07 But what they're. They're doing a lot of different tests in there,
00:19:07 --> 00:19:09 but one of them is, is they're looking at crew dynamics.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 And some really interesting research has come out of that.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:17 so I'll just. I'll just paint a really quick picture of this so we can move on
00:19:17 --> 00:19:17 to our.
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 Our last story. But this is so fascinating to me.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 So they look at the crew of
00:19:23 --> 00:19:26 four. Four. There's four people in this analog. And they
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 give them simulated scenarios that
00:19:29 --> 00:19:32 will allow for them to build
00:19:32 --> 00:19:34 relationships a certain way. So they might give
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 two crew members a problem that's hard
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 enough to solve. That when they solve it, they feel
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 really accomplished and they feel more bonded.
00:19:43 --> 00:19:46 But it's just easy enough that they're guaranteed success.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:50 So they'll artificially create a stronger bond
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 between those two crew members by doing something like that.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 And then the other two crew members, they might do this the same
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59 thing. And then they might do other scenarios where it's like,
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 these crew members, these three are closer. This
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 third person, there's. This fourth person is kind of cut out.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 And, I can. I will give you guys the link so that you guys can
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 all read this research yourself. Because I just. I. I'm obsessed
00:20:11 --> 00:20:14 with this, this. This study. But
00:20:14 --> 00:20:17 basically what they found is they have the integrated
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 model where all four crew members are working together. And
00:20:20 --> 00:20:22 they're all in sync. And their mission success was around
00:20:22 --> 00:20:25 100% successful. Then they have
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 the subgroup models where, okay, these two are
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 closer, these two are closer. Everyone still works
00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 together, but these two subgroups have formed a
00:20:33 --> 00:20:36 closer bond. Surprisingly,
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 their mission success would drop to around 80%
00:20:39 --> 00:20:42 successful. And then the
00:20:42 --> 00:20:45 isolated model where these three crew members are working really
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 closely together. And the third crew member was kind of
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 isolated. Their mission success dropped to around
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 50% successful. And
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 they said that this works across
00:20:57 --> 00:21:00 any scale. So they've done a lot of research with
00:21:00 --> 00:21:02 sports teams. So if your offense and
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 defense identifies more as offense and defense
00:21:05 --> 00:21:08 rather than the whole team, the team is less
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 successful. And, you know, and then I think you
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 guys have figured out by now I'm kind of a cheeseball here on Space
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 Nuts. I'm the, I'm the space. I'm a nerd. But
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 it's like, I think about it on a global scale. What if
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 humanity was thinking that we're all
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 on the same team instead of I'm
00:21:25 --> 00:21:28 this company or I'm that company, or I'm this this, or I'm that nation. If we
00:21:28 --> 00:21:31 were all, if we were all playing for the same team here and to see
00:21:31 --> 00:21:34 what our mission success would be. But I don't know,
00:21:34 --> 00:21:37 that was, that's just kind of what I get out of that. And so there's, there's a
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 level of informal that I think sometimes really helpful because it helps
00:21:40 --> 00:21:41 us form those bonds.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 Professor Fred Watson: it's key to, I mean, it would be wonderful if the
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48 whole world was on the same team. God knows we need
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 that, the way things are at the moment.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 but, the, idea
00:21:54 --> 00:21:56 of having the right individuals
00:21:56 --> 00:21:59 and the right team structure for, say, a Mars
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 mission, where you've got people cooped up
00:22:02 --> 00:22:05 in a small, place millions of
00:22:05 --> 00:22:08 kilometers from Earth for six months before
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 you actually get to Mars, and then
00:22:11 --> 00:22:13 you've got to do all the stuff there that, that's going to be
00:22:13 --> 00:22:16 key to the success of the mission.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:19 it's, you know, notwithstanding all the technical
00:22:19 --> 00:22:22 issues, all the habitat
00:22:22 --> 00:22:25 issues and all the rest of it, just having people
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27 who get on and can get on and work productively
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31 must be the number one priority. So that's
00:22:31 --> 00:22:33 my guess where that study, that sort of study is
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 heading. And, hopefully it will all be
00:22:36 --> 00:22:38 100% successful.
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 Heidi Campo: Yeah. And that's what they do a lot in, Chapia and Hera and
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 a lot of these, extended duration analogs. And
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 I might still do it. I told them that at the.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:50 I was the one who dropped out. They, they were ready to
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 actually give me a mission, but I dropped out because it just wasn't good timing
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 for me. but you know who's really good? You love
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 my segues. I don't know. This is my thing is, you know,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 what species is wonderful
00:23:01 --> 00:23:02 at working on A team.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:05 Professor Fred Watson: Let me guess.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 Yeah, isn't that is a lovely segue. And
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 you know, this is a story that. Yes, we're going to talk about
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 Wales. Wh. Not. The
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 country next to England doesn't have the
00:23:21 --> 00:23:24 H. And we could talk about that some other time probably.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:26 Heidi Campo: I'm sure they're wonderful team players as well.
00:23:26 --> 00:23:28 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, I think they are, yes. Yeah, they're good singers too.
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 so this is a study about whale behavior.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 And the reason why I thought this would
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 be a good one to talk about on Spacenauts is that it's
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 got, sort of overtones of how
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 we might deal with communication
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 with extraterrestrial aliens. And you
00:23:47 --> 00:23:50 and I have mentioned already the movie Arrival, which was a
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 fabulous account of exactly that
00:23:53 --> 00:23:53 problem.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:55 Heidi Campo: Yeah, I love that movie so much.
00:23:56 --> 00:23:58 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah, so this is the same sort of
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 thing, but you're not talking about people who land in
00:24:01 --> 00:24:04 weird looking spaceships, you're talking about whales.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:08 And there is a paper now that has
00:24:08 --> 00:24:10 been. It's actually reported in in Nature magazine, which
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 is the. One of the two leading journals
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 in the world for scientific results. But I think,
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 there's a publication in one of the, one of the
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 journals related to, you know, to living organisms.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 But the bottom line is humpback whales,
00:24:27 --> 00:24:30 we, we've known for quite a long time that
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 they use what are called bubble rings
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 as a trap for the prey
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 that they want to eat, probably krill. I'm not sure
00:24:38 --> 00:24:41 whether humpbacks eat bigger organisms, but
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 krill is certainly, part of their diet.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:46 And what they do is they blow these bubble rings,
00:24:47 --> 00:24:49 which act as a sort of net and then they
00:24:50 --> 00:24:52 swim inside it and gobble up all the stuff that's been
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 netted. But it turns out that these
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58 bubble rings actually, come in
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 different shapes and sizes. Some are
00:25:01 --> 00:25:04 exquisitely circular. there's
00:25:04 --> 00:25:07 actually an image, which is on this nature.
00:25:07 --> 00:25:10 Heidi Campo: It's a perfect circle and it almost
00:25:10 --> 00:25:13 looks like a whirlpool too. Like, I'm like, how is
00:25:13 --> 00:25:13 this real?
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 Professor Fred Watson: That's right. Which is an
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 amazing. You know, it's like a foam in a
00:25:20 --> 00:25:23 perfect circle a few feet in diameter.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:26 But they also, sometimes make
00:25:26 --> 00:25:29 multiples of these. So you get a ring of perfect
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 circles or a spiral shape.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 And the focus of
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 this research is that
00:25:38 --> 00:25:41 it turns out when you look at the
00:25:41 --> 00:25:43 statistics of these bubble ring
00:25:44 --> 00:25:46 appearances, that there are more of them
00:25:47 --> 00:25:50 that occur when humans are
00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 watching than occur
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 in the natural world when there's nobody
00:25:56 --> 00:25:59 around. And so this is
00:25:59 --> 00:25:59 they might be.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:01 Heidi Campo: Trying to talk to us.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 Professor Fred Watson: That's exactly it. This is the thrust of this article.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:05 Are we seeing
00:26:07 --> 00:26:10 ah, a behavior in Wales
00:26:10 --> 00:26:13 that suggests that they are doing
00:26:13 --> 00:26:15 something that is all about
00:26:16 --> 00:26:18 whale to human communication
00:26:19 --> 00:26:22 rather than, you know, rather than just
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 a random sort of thing. it's actually the
00:26:25 --> 00:26:28 publication is Marine Mammal Science. That's the,
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 where this, where this paper appeared. But I think it's been commented, I
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 think this commentary comes from Nature magazine.
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 and there's yeah some, some
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 lovely examples of
00:26:40 --> 00:26:43 these. Ring, ring production. There's
00:26:43 --> 00:26:45 one quote here that comes from the researchers who've done this work.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:48 Out of the 12 episodes of Ring production reported
00:26:48 --> 00:26:51 here, 10 episodes were collected near
00:26:51 --> 00:26:54 a boat or human swimmers, while six
00:26:54 --> 00:26:56 had more than one whale present.
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 Despite these ample opportunities for
00:27:00 --> 00:27:03 intra and interspecies aggression,
00:27:03 --> 00:27:06 there was no evidence of antagonism towards
00:27:07 --> 00:27:10 conspecifics. I think that's ah, a
00:27:10 --> 00:27:12 marine mammal word for like minded
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 or aggression towards boats or swimmers in any of the ring
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 episodes. quite the contrary in fact. Far from showing
00:27:18 --> 00:27:21 signs of avoiding humans, eight of the nine of
00:27:21 --> 00:27:24 nine ring blowers approached the boat or swimmers
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 with exceptions to when they were blowing bubbles while
00:27:26 --> 00:27:29 feeding. So there's more
00:27:29 --> 00:27:31 statistics in the article which I won't go into
00:27:32 --> 00:27:34 but it does look as though there is a predominance of
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 these ring bubbles of a particular kind. And these
00:27:38 --> 00:27:41 I think are the most symmetrical and kind of
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 elegant ones in a way, being blown when
00:27:43 --> 00:27:46 there are humans present. make of
00:27:46 --> 00:27:48 that what you will.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:51 And you know I'm guessing that a lot of the other
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54 others that have been observed and I do know that
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 quite a lot of these ring bubbles that have been seen have been
00:27:58 --> 00:28:00 observed by drones and you know, other
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 sort of remote sensing equipment so that there
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 weren't humans present in those instances.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:09 Heidi Campo: Well you know language in and of
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 itself is such a fascinating topic and
00:28:14 --> 00:28:17 both verbal and written language is so interesting
00:28:17 --> 00:28:20 and that was something to keep it space related. That was something
00:28:20 --> 00:28:23 that was widely discussed with Voyager and
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 they initially wanted to have
00:28:26 --> 00:28:29 a map of Earth with an arrow pointing to Earth. And
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 there was a lot of discussion, well what is an arrow?
00:28:32 --> 00:28:33 An arrow is a man made thing.
00:28:34 --> 00:28:37 We can't say if ah, intelligent life
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 form would understand what an arrow meant. So
00:28:40 --> 00:28:43 that's why they ended up doing more of kind of like a
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47 little bit more of a mathematical model because
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 math is universal. So that's that was
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 the logic behind that is math is A universal language.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:55 and same thing with music. And they did also include whale
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 songs and a number of other beautiful
00:28:58 --> 00:29:01 things. You can actually find a lot of those tapes, on
00:29:01 --> 00:29:04 Spotify. They have people singing from around the world.
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 Professor Fred Watson: That's, the gold disc that was on,
00:29:11 --> 00:29:13 each of the two voyages. The
00:29:13 --> 00:29:16 Pioneer spacecraft also had. They just had
00:29:16 --> 00:29:19 plaques, but they had sort of mathematical
00:29:19 --> 00:29:21 representation of where the Earth was, which, if I remember
00:29:21 --> 00:29:24 rightly, was in terms of the direction to specific
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 quasars, which are very,
00:29:28 --> 00:29:31 distant. It might even have been pulsars, I can't remember.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 But, the idea was to.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 To denote what the source of this spacecraft was,
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 using things that would be
00:29:40 --> 00:29:43 recognized by an extraterrestrial intelligence because
00:29:43 --> 00:29:46 they would make astronomical observations as well. And so they
00:29:46 --> 00:29:47 were trying to link, you know, the
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51 directors, direct people to where this had come from
00:29:51 --> 00:29:54 by the astronomical information around
00:29:54 --> 00:29:54 us.
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 Heidi Campo: I, was speaking, with a friend of mine the other day who's a
00:29:58 --> 00:30:00 mathematician, and she said the reason why she
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 loves music so much is because music
00:30:03 --> 00:30:05 is math in motion.
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 Professor Fred Watson: It is, absolutely. I'm exactly the same,
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 Heidi. If I hadn't been an
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12 astronomer, I would have been a musician.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16 Heidi Campo: Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, it really is. And whale
00:30:16 --> 00:30:18 song is something I think everybody connects to. And
00:30:19 --> 00:30:20 it is really incredible to see
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 the crossover between humans and animals
00:30:24 --> 00:30:27 and intelligence and
00:30:27 --> 00:30:30 math and maybe, who
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 knows, maybe the whales are going to help us figure out
00:30:33 --> 00:30:36 something. Maybe they have it all figured out and they've been just trying
00:30:36 --> 00:30:38 to tell us. Just need to listen better.
00:30:38 --> 00:30:41 Professor Fred Watson: Just look at these bubble circles, for goodness sake,
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 and then you'll work it all out.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:46 Heidi Campo: So if any of you guys can figure out the math,
00:30:46 --> 00:30:49 formula that the whales are sending us, please let us know.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:50 Professor Fred Watson: Yeah.
00:30:51 --> 00:30:54 Heidi Campo: Fred, this has been lovely. This is. This is a really. This
00:30:54 --> 00:30:56 was a fun episode. A lot of, uplifting and very interesting,
00:30:57 --> 00:30:58 conversations today.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:01 Professor Fred Watson: Thank you, Heidi. I think. I think so, too. It's been
00:31:01 --> 00:31:04 fun talking to you, as always, and we'll speak again
00:31:04 --> 00:31:05 very soon.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:07 Heidi Campo: All right, see you later,
00:31:11 --> 00:31:12 space Nuts.
00:31:13 --> 00:31:15 Welcome back to another episode of Space
00:31:15 --> 00:31:18 Nuts. I'm your host for this summer,
00:31:18 --> 00:31:20 filling in for Andrew Dunkley. My name is
00:31:20 --> 00:31:23 Heidi Campo, and joining us is Professor Fred
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 Watson, astronomer at large.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 Professor Fred Watson: Good, to be here, Heidi, as always. And you're
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 also our host for this winter here in Australia.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:37 So, yeah, lovely to talk. And, I think we've got some
00:31:37 --> 00:31:40 pretty great questions from our, listeners for this episode.
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43 Heidi Campo: We do. We have some. We have some really fun
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 not episodes. We have some fun questions.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 our first question today is Martins
00:31:50 --> 00:31:52 from Latvia. And here is
00:31:53 --> 00:31:54 his question.
00:31:55 --> 00:31:58 Speaker C: Hello, guys. It's, Martins from Latvia.
00:31:58 --> 00:32:00 I've, been loving your show. Been listening since
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02 2017. And,
00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 so I have a question about dark matter.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 Okay, just kidding. I have a question about
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 speed, of light. So we have two objects.
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 One object is on Earth, and the other one is traveling
00:32:15 --> 00:32:18 in space at the speed of light. After some
00:32:18 --> 00:32:21 time, it comes back and the object that's on Earth is
00:32:21 --> 00:32:23 older than the other object.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:27 So why is that happening again? Why? They aren't
00:32:27 --> 00:32:30 the same, age. I mean, yeah, there's something to
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32 do probably when you're reaching speed of light that time
00:32:33 --> 00:32:36 slowing down or something. But why it's slowing down? Why isn't
00:32:36 --> 00:32:38 it, like, yeah, just curious.
00:32:39 --> 00:32:41 And, yeah, and I have, some
00:32:41 --> 00:32:44 dad joke for your, arsenal. Andrew.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:47 So, how do you put a space baby to
00:32:47 --> 00:32:50 sleep? Your rocket. So
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 anyways, guys, cheers, then. Yeah,
00:32:53 --> 00:32:54 have a good one.
00:32:55 --> 00:32:58 Heidi Campo: Well, I think those space babies will be
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00 sleeping well with those jokes. Thank you so much,
00:33:00 --> 00:33:02 Martinez. That was a good one.
00:33:04 --> 00:33:07 Professor Fred Watson: Yep. Space babies, always need to be
00:33:07 --> 00:33:08 rocked. That's right.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:12 So, now that's a great question. I have
00:33:12 --> 00:33:15 visited Latvia, actually. some years ago. We did a tour
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 there. I do remember, you know, Heidi,
00:33:18 --> 00:33:21 because we've talked about it before. I'm very fond of trains.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 We traveled on a little railway, through the
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 snow and through. Because we always visit these
00:33:27 --> 00:33:29 places in winter, through snow and woodlands. And
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 it trundled along at something like
00:33:33 --> 00:33:35 nine miles an hour. Maybe
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 it was a fast walking pace
00:33:39 --> 00:33:42 because it was a very old line, but it was a lot of fun.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 Anyway, enough about Latvia.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:46 let's get to the speed of light, which is basically what
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 Martin's question is about. this is.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:53 It's one of the fundamental aspects
00:33:53 --> 00:33:56 of relativity. Einstein's two theories
00:33:56 --> 00:33:58 of relativity. One was about motion, the other was about
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 gravity. It's the one about motion that covers this. That's
00:34:01 --> 00:34:04 called the special theory of relativity, dated
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07 1905. And it turns out
00:34:07 --> 00:34:09 that the thinking that Einstein had had,
00:34:10 --> 00:34:13 leading up to this was that
00:34:13 --> 00:34:16 we know that the speed of light is a
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19 bizarre quantity because in
00:34:19 --> 00:34:22 a vacuum, it's always the same. We
00:34:22 --> 00:34:24 know also that it's the maximum speed
00:34:24 --> 00:34:27 that anything can attain. In fact, you can't actually achieve the speed of
00:34:27 --> 00:34:30 light with an object because you would have
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 to put infinite energy in to get it to the speed of Light. And we
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 don't have infinite energy. So light and
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 its other electromagnetic waves. They are
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 the only things that can travel at the speed of light.
00:34:42 --> 00:34:45 But if you had something that you are accelerating.
00:34:45 --> 00:34:48 Well, let me just go back. The speed of light is,
00:34:49 --> 00:34:51 almost like a magic number. It's not magic because it's
00:34:51 --> 00:34:54 a very round number. It's about 300 kilometers per second.
00:34:56 --> 00:34:59 it is, however, the fact that it
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 doesn't change in a vacuum. And it doesn't matter how
00:35:02 --> 00:35:05 fast the source is moving. You'd expect if you have
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 a source that's moving. That sends out a beam of light.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 The source's speed would add to the speed
00:35:11 --> 00:35:14 of light. And the speed of light would increase. But it doesn't doesn't work
00:35:14 --> 00:35:17 like that. And once you establish that,
00:35:17 --> 00:35:19 then it turns out. And there's
00:35:21 --> 00:35:23 some quite sort of simple ways of
00:35:24 --> 00:35:27 seeing how this might work. Which we don't really have
00:35:27 --> 00:35:29 time to talk about. But some of the books about special
00:35:29 --> 00:35:32 relativity. That talk about people looking at somebody
00:35:32 --> 00:35:35 moving on a train. Show you how the geometry
00:35:35 --> 00:35:38 works. That, Because the speed of light is always the
00:35:38 --> 00:35:41 same. Then what it tells you is
00:35:41 --> 00:35:44 perceptions of time and distance must change.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 And so the key thing here. And the
00:35:47 --> 00:35:49 point that, Martins is raising.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:53 Is that if you've got an observer
00:35:53 --> 00:35:56 who is stationary. Compared with somebody
00:35:56 --> 00:35:59 who's moving at a very high speed. Nearly,
00:35:59 --> 00:36:02 the speed of light or yeah. It doesn't
00:36:02 --> 00:36:05 matter whether it's near the speed of light or not. It's the effect
00:36:05 --> 00:36:08 works. But it's when you get nearer the speed of light. That it
00:36:08 --> 00:36:10 becomes noticeable. the time
00:36:11 --> 00:36:13 that you observe that moving
00:36:14 --> 00:36:14 person,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:19 experiencing is slower. So your
00:36:19 --> 00:36:21 time's ticking away as normal. And
00:36:21 --> 00:36:24 the person who's moving past you. Their
00:36:24 --> 00:36:27 time is ticking away as normal. But when the
00:36:27 --> 00:36:30 stationary person. If you could see the clock
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 on the moving vehicle or whatever it is. Train going
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36 at nearly the speed of light. Just to mix a few metaphors there.
00:36:36 --> 00:36:39 what you would see is their clocks would seem to be going
00:36:39 --> 00:36:42 much more slowly than yours is. And that's
00:36:42 --> 00:36:45 the time dilation effect. And yes, it
00:36:45 --> 00:36:48 means that, if you can then bring these two
00:36:48 --> 00:36:50 back together. The moving person
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54 has experienced less time relative to
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56 you than you have. And that's the
00:36:56 --> 00:36:59 it's sometimes called the twins paradox. Because if you
00:36:59 --> 00:37:02 take two twins. One goes off at the speed of light, comes
00:37:02 --> 00:37:05 back again. Or nearly the speed of light, comes back again.
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 There they have aged much less than the twin who
00:37:08 --> 00:37:09 stayed put.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:15 So that's the bottom line. And it's,
00:37:16 --> 00:37:19 you know, it's such a counterintuitive concept.
00:37:19 --> 00:37:22 That it is really hard to get your head around. But we know it
00:37:22 --> 00:37:25 works. in fact, the demonstration.
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29 the practical demonstration of this phenomenon happening
00:37:29 --> 00:37:31 in reality, I think it was just before the
00:37:31 --> 00:37:34 Second World War. Might have been round about the same time.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:38 But there are things called cosmic rays. Which are bombarding the
00:37:38 --> 00:37:40 Earth all the time. These are subatomic particles that come from space.
00:37:41 --> 00:37:44 and they are, predominantly a
00:37:44 --> 00:37:46 species of subatomic particle called a muon.
00:37:47 --> 00:37:49 So these muons were observed coming down
00:37:50 --> 00:37:52 through space. At, nearly the speed of light.
00:37:53 --> 00:37:56 And we know how long they take to
00:37:56 --> 00:37:58 decay in the laboratory. But
00:37:58 --> 00:38:01 their decay time was much longer. When
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 they were observed coming in at the speed of light. Nearly
00:38:04 --> 00:38:07 the speed of light. The time had dilated. So their
00:38:07 --> 00:38:10 decays were much longer. Than what we observe in the
00:38:10 --> 00:38:12 laboratory. When they're not stationary. But they're
00:38:13 --> 00:38:16 going much more slowly. So it is a proven
00:38:16 --> 00:38:18 fact this works. if we could
00:38:19 --> 00:38:22 build a spacecraft that would get us to. I can't remember
00:38:22 --> 00:38:23 what it is. I think it's
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 99998% of the speed
00:38:26 --> 00:38:29 of light. Head off for 500
00:38:29 --> 00:38:31 light years, come back again. you will be 10 years
00:38:31 --> 00:38:34 older. whereas everybody else on Earth will be a thousand
00:38:34 --> 00:38:37 years older. So it's that sort of thing, you
00:38:37 --> 00:38:40 know. Your time has slowed down relative to what they've
00:38:40 --> 00:38:41 experienced.
00:38:43 --> 00:38:45 Heidi Campo: I had a weird nightmare about that the other night.
00:38:45 --> 00:38:46 Professor Fred Watson: Oh, did you?
00:38:47 --> 00:38:49 Heidi Campo: It was the strangest thing. I had a nightma.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:52 somebody put me in, like, some kind of a cryo sleep.
00:38:52 --> 00:38:55 And I woke up and so much time had passed that everyone I knew
00:38:55 --> 00:38:58 had died. And so I had them put me back in cryo sleep
00:38:58 --> 00:39:01 for thousands of more years. Until we discovered the technology
00:39:01 --> 00:39:04 to travel back in time. So I could go back in time and
00:39:04 --> 00:39:06 link back up with everyone I loved.
00:39:08 --> 00:39:09 Professor Fred Watson: That's a pretty good one.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:12 Heidi Campo: Is that I have a very active
00:39:13 --> 00:39:13 dreamscape.
00:39:13 --> 00:39:13 Professor Fred Watson: Ah.
00:39:13 --> 00:39:15 Heidi Campo: At night I wake up exhausted.
00:39:16 --> 00:39:17 Professor Fred Watson: Okay.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:20 Heidi Campo: All right. Well, our next question, has a little bit of
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23 philosophy in it. this. This question is coming from
00:39:23 --> 00:39:26 Art from Rochester, New York. And it's a.
00:39:26 --> 00:39:29 It's quite a long question. So let's, grab a
00:39:29 --> 00:39:30 cup of tea here.
00:39:32 --> 00:39:35 Art says, I was listening to the June 13 program
00:39:35 --> 00:39:38 concerning the Flying Banana. Which prompted me to
00:39:38 --> 00:39:40 submit my first question to Space Nuts.
00:39:41 --> 00:39:44 It is a question I had been pondering for some time. You
00:39:44 --> 00:39:47 will be glad to hear it is not A black hole question, but
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50 rather a, what if question. The great American
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 philosopher Julius Henry Marx once
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 postulated, time flies like an arrow, fruit
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58 flies like a banana. Based
00:39:58 --> 00:40:01 on empirical evidence, I can confirm that fruit
00:40:01 --> 00:40:03 flies like a banana. My question
00:40:03 --> 00:40:06 revolves around time flying like an arrow.
00:40:07 --> 00:40:09 To the best of my understanding, when we shoot off
00:40:09 --> 00:40:12 rockets to the moon or Pluto, in order to get
00:40:12 --> 00:40:15 there accurately, the rocket scientists use an
00:40:17 --> 00:40:19 infomeris. You'll have to correct me on the
00:40:19 --> 00:40:21 pronunciations of that or possible
00:40:22 --> 00:40:24 amphimerdes as a sort of a map.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:28 If faster than light space travel were
00:40:28 --> 00:40:30 possible, how could one navigate from point A to
00:40:30 --> 00:40:33 point B? Is it possible to develop an
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36 ephemeris for faster than light
00:40:36 --> 00:40:39 travel? Thank you, Art from Rochester, New
00:40:39 --> 00:40:40 York.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:44 Professor Fred Watson: A great question, Art. And, yeah, your
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 pronunciation is correct. Ephemeris is what these
00:40:47 --> 00:40:50 things are, and ephemerides is what a lot of
00:40:50 --> 00:40:52 them are. So what's an ephemeris? Well,
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 the original meaning,
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 and I guess this really is still the meaning of the word
00:40:59 --> 00:41:01 is, to predict
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04 where, planets are going to be,
00:41:05 --> 00:41:08 in the future, where celestial objects are going to
00:41:08 --> 00:41:10 be. So, going back to my
00:41:10 --> 00:41:13 master's degree, back, you know,
00:41:13 --> 00:41:16 150 years ago, my work was on,
00:41:16 --> 00:41:19 the orbits of asteroids. And
00:41:19 --> 00:41:22 so there were two problems. First problem was how do
00:41:22 --> 00:41:25 you take observations of an asteroid? And remember, all we had
00:41:25 --> 00:41:28 in those days was the direction
00:41:28 --> 00:41:31 that you could see measured with a telescope. How do you
00:41:31 --> 00:41:33 turn that into knowledge of the orbit of
00:41:33 --> 00:41:36 the asteroid in three dimensions? And you
00:41:36 --> 00:41:39 can do it. You need at least three observations to do that. But
00:41:39 --> 00:41:42 you can do it. You can mathematically deduce the
00:41:42 --> 00:41:44 orbit from just three directions in space.
00:41:45 --> 00:41:48 But then once you've got the orbit, what you want to know is
00:41:48 --> 00:41:50 where it's going to be in the future, what's its direction
00:41:50 --> 00:41:53 in space going to be? And that is what an ephemeris
00:41:53 --> 00:41:56 is. It's how the position of an object changes,
00:41:57 --> 00:42:00 in the sky, over time. so it comes
00:42:00 --> 00:42:02 from the word ephemeral, meaning stuff that's
00:42:02 --> 00:42:05 temporary. so an ephemeris, is the.
00:42:06 --> 00:42:09 Basically, it's a table, of where an object will
00:42:09 --> 00:42:12 be over a given amount of time. And of course, it's critically
00:42:12 --> 00:42:15 important these days because we now know that,
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19 which we didn't know when I did my master's degree. We
00:42:19 --> 00:42:22 now know that the Earth's locality is pretty heavily
00:42:22 --> 00:42:24 populated with asteroids. And there's, you know,
00:42:25 --> 00:42:27 we might want to know where they are just in Case,
00:42:27 --> 00:42:30 one's heading our way. So, I, you know, I think the
00:42:30 --> 00:42:33 question, Art's question is a good one in
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 the sense that, okay, he's saying, yes,
00:42:36 --> 00:42:39 we, we use ephemera, ephemerides to,
00:42:39 --> 00:42:42 to basically navigate
00:42:42 --> 00:42:45 to objects. it's actually
00:42:45 --> 00:42:47 a little bit more than that because we, we
00:42:47 --> 00:42:50 use effectively a three dimensional map of where
00:42:50 --> 00:42:53 these planets are, in order to
00:42:53 --> 00:42:56 dictate where they're going to be when your rocket arrives
00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 there. And that's critically important of course, because you want
00:42:59 --> 00:43:02 the rocket to get to the orbit of for example
00:43:02 --> 00:43:04 Pluto, as Art mentions, when
00:43:04 --> 00:43:07 Pluto is going to be, whereabouts the
00:43:07 --> 00:43:10 rocket is. You don't want to reach the orbit of Pluto and find
00:43:10 --> 00:43:13 Pluto somewhere else. That's why you need an ephemeris.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:17 but if you could travel faster than the speed
00:43:17 --> 00:43:19 of light, and we've already shown that that's
00:43:19 --> 00:43:22 impossible, in this episode because you need infinite
00:43:22 --> 00:43:25 energy to do that, ah, to reach the speed of light.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:28 But if you could, the ephemeris would still
00:43:28 --> 00:43:31 work, you would need to put in
00:43:31 --> 00:43:33 a negative number for the
00:43:34 --> 00:43:37 I think the speed of light
00:43:37 --> 00:43:40 actually goes into ephemeris calculations. I remember it
00:43:40 --> 00:43:43 well, but I think you put in a factor.
00:43:43 --> 00:43:46 It wouldn't be a negative number. It would be a factor that would
00:43:46 --> 00:43:49 allow for the fact that you were traveling at faster than the speed of
00:43:49 --> 00:43:52 light. So you could do it. It's not an
00:43:52 --> 00:43:54 impossible mathematical problem.
00:43:56 --> 00:43:57 For what it's worth.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01 Heidi Campo: Well, that was fantastic. I just about understood that
00:44:01 --> 00:44:02 too.
00:44:04 --> 00:44:04 Professor Fred Watson: Sorry.
00:44:04 --> 00:44:07 Heidi Campo: no, you always do such a great job of explaining these.
00:44:08 --> 00:44:10 my IQ is going up every time I'm involved on
00:44:10 --> 00:44:13 these, these episodes. And also great
00:44:13 --> 00:44:16 questions. We have some of the smartest,
00:44:16 --> 00:44:19 smartest listeners. I mean these people are, are
00:44:19 --> 00:44:19 brilliant.
00:44:20 --> 00:44:22 our, our next question is another audio question,
00:44:23 --> 00:44:26 from David from Munich. And it's a little bit
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28 of a longer question as well. So we are
00:44:28 --> 00:44:31 going to go ahead and play that for you now.
00:44:32 --> 00:44:34 Speaker D: Hey guys, David from Munich here.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:37 Shout out to Andrew, Fred and
00:44:37 --> 00:44:40 Jonti. And I heard that you're a bit
00:44:40 --> 00:44:43 shorter in question, so I thought that my chance
00:44:43 --> 00:44:46 to submit one. I'm currently
00:44:46 --> 00:44:49 looking at the picture, taken by the James
00:44:49 --> 00:44:52 Webb Telescope. You know the first one, the first deep M space,
00:44:52 --> 00:44:55 which was also presented by President Biden back then.
00:44:55 --> 00:44:58 And I realized that the galaxies
00:44:58 --> 00:45:01 do differ in their color pretty
00:45:01 --> 00:45:04 much. So there are more white ones,
00:45:04 --> 00:45:06 orange ones, and also reddish ones.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:09 And I wonder how Is that,
00:45:09 --> 00:45:12 is it due to the fact that or is this like the
00:45:12 --> 00:45:14 redshift because they're moving away,
00:45:16 --> 00:45:19 which I kind of doubt, but I don't know what,
00:45:19 --> 00:45:22 what is it else? Or is there so much material of
00:45:22 --> 00:45:24 a different, of different kind
00:45:24 --> 00:45:27 in the galaxy that he appears for us more
00:45:27 --> 00:45:30 red or more blue. So
00:45:31 --> 00:45:33 be nice if you could explain that. And
00:45:34 --> 00:45:36 also I wonder a bit. Let's imagine we would
00:45:36 --> 00:45:39 travel to this far distant galaxies.
00:45:40 --> 00:45:42 if you could do it potentially,
00:45:44 --> 00:45:45 would it not be some kind of
00:45:47 --> 00:45:50 travel through, through the time? So
00:45:50 --> 00:45:53 because when we look back there, right, we see them on
00:45:53 --> 00:45:55 their early stages. So till it,
00:45:56 --> 00:45:58 it's a long time until the light
00:45:58 --> 00:46:01 reaches us. And if you would travel to that far
00:46:01 --> 00:46:04 distant, galaxies you would
00:46:04 --> 00:46:07 basically. Or what I imagine is like you would
00:46:07 --> 00:46:10 travel through time, right? So if you did, the moment
00:46:10 --> 00:46:13 you come closer and closer the galaxy, or
00:46:13 --> 00:46:16 maybe let's think of a single planet would then change
00:46:16 --> 00:46:19 its appearance, right? So you would see that it's
00:46:19 --> 00:46:22 alter, it shifts maybe its base or it
00:46:22 --> 00:46:23 merges with another galaxy.
00:46:25 --> 00:46:28 is my thinking correct? Would it like the far,
00:46:28 --> 00:46:31 the closer you come, the more it would change its
00:46:31 --> 00:46:34 shape and I don't know,
00:46:34 --> 00:46:37 colors maybe, and things you would
00:46:37 --> 00:46:39 see. yeah, thanks for taking my questions. like
00:46:39 --> 00:46:41 the show and
00:46:42 --> 00:46:43 till then.
00:46:43 --> 00:46:46 Heidi Campo: Well, thank you so much. that was
00:46:46 --> 00:46:49 David from Munich. Thank you. That was a well
00:46:49 --> 00:46:51 thought out question. Fred, I'm so curious.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:54 Professor Fred Watson: They were great questions, Heidi from
00:46:54 --> 00:46:57 David. And in fact the answer to both his
00:46:57 --> 00:47:00 questions is yes. so David's
00:47:00 --> 00:47:03 asking whether the color changes
00:47:03 --> 00:47:05 that we see in the images, of these deep
00:47:05 --> 00:47:08 fields, as we call them, looking way
00:47:08 --> 00:47:11 back in time, whether those different colors
00:47:11 --> 00:47:14 of galaxies is caused by
00:47:14 --> 00:47:17 the different redshifts of these galaxies.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:20 And that's the bottom line. But there's a few
00:47:20 --> 00:47:22 caveats here. Let me just explain what I mean.
00:47:23 --> 00:47:26 redshift is the phenomenon that as
00:47:26 --> 00:47:28 light travels through an expanding universe,
00:47:29 --> 00:47:32 the universe is expanding, light is making its way
00:47:32 --> 00:47:34 through the universe, but as it goes the universe is getting
00:47:34 --> 00:47:37 bigger and so the light's wavelength is
00:47:37 --> 00:47:40 actually being stretched. and ah, as
00:47:40 --> 00:47:43 you stretch the wavelength of light, it goes redder, it goes to the
00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 redder end of the spectrum. And so that's what's happening.
00:47:46 --> 00:47:48 But the caveat that I mentioned is that these
00:47:49 --> 00:47:51 are actually false colors in the sense that
00:47:52 --> 00:47:54 the James Webb telescope is an infrared telescope.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:57 So it is looking at light that our eyes are not
00:47:57 --> 00:48:00 sensitive to. It's actually redder than red light that it's
00:48:00 --> 00:48:02 looking at. So what the
00:48:03 --> 00:48:05 mission scientists do is they,
00:48:06 --> 00:48:09 they take the shortest wavelengths
00:48:09 --> 00:48:12 that the web can see, which are
00:48:12 --> 00:48:15 really beyond our. They're redder than red
00:48:15 --> 00:48:18 for us, for our eyes, but they're the shortest
00:48:18 --> 00:48:21 wavelengths that the red can detect, and they make that blue in
00:48:21 --> 00:48:24 their colors. And then the longest wavelengths that the
00:48:24 --> 00:48:27 web can detect, they make it red in their colors
00:48:27 --> 00:48:30 and that. So that mimics what we would
00:48:30 --> 00:48:33 see with our eyes, with visible, you
00:48:33 --> 00:48:35 know, visible light, but it mimics it moved into the
00:48:35 --> 00:48:38 infrared. So it does mean that as
00:48:38 --> 00:48:41 objects, you know, get redder, in the
00:48:41 --> 00:48:44 infrared spectrum, we see them redder in the James Webb
00:48:44 --> 00:48:46 telescope images. And that's exactly the reason
00:48:47 --> 00:48:50 the most distant objects are so highly
00:48:50 --> 00:48:52 redshifted that you're seeing them as red
00:48:52 --> 00:48:55 objects compared with the white objects, which are the
00:48:55 --> 00:48:58 much nearer ones. So David's right on that front.
00:48:59 --> 00:49:01 His second question, what would some of these
00:49:01 --> 00:49:04 galaxies we're looking back, you know, up to? I think
00:49:04 --> 00:49:07 the record is looking back 13.52 billion years
00:49:07 --> 00:49:10 at the M moment, which is 280 million
00:49:10 --> 00:49:13 years after the birth of the universe. It's a big
00:49:13 --> 00:49:15 puzzle as to how galaxies got
00:49:15 --> 00:49:18 so big and so rich,
00:49:18 --> 00:49:21 in that short period of time. But that's
00:49:21 --> 00:49:24 for the cosmologists, not for us. they'll work it out.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:27 It'll be okay. the bottom line, though, is that if
00:49:27 --> 00:49:30 you could forget about the journey because we can't
00:49:30 --> 00:49:33 travel the sort of speeds that you need. But if you
00:49:33 --> 00:49:35 imagined yourself, instantly
00:49:35 --> 00:49:38 transported from our,
00:49:38 --> 00:49:41 vantage point here on Earth to one of
00:49:41 --> 00:49:43 These early galaxies, 13.52 billion
00:49:43 --> 00:49:46 years, billion light years away, what you would
00:49:46 --> 00:49:49 see would be a galaxy that might look a lot like ours.
00:49:50 --> 00:49:52 It has evolved because you're seeing it.
00:49:53 --> 00:49:55 I mean, you've got to imagine we're
00:49:56 --> 00:49:59 being transported instantaneously so that what we
00:49:59 --> 00:50:02 see is what's happening now. That galaxy will have had
00:50:02 --> 00:50:04 13.52 billion years of evolution. It'll be
00:50:04 --> 00:50:07 quite different. It might actually be quite a boring galaxy
00:50:07 --> 00:50:10 compared with the very, energetic,
00:50:10 --> 00:50:13 infant galaxy that we look at with the James Webb
00:50:13 --> 00:50:16 telescope. Complicated answer to a simple question,
00:50:16 --> 00:50:17 but David's right on the money.
00:50:19 --> 00:50:21 Heidi Campo: That is such an interesting way of thinking about that.
00:50:23 --> 00:50:26 I'm going to be spending a while wrapping my head around that
00:50:26 --> 00:50:26 one.
00:50:27 --> 00:50:29 our last question of the evening is from
00:50:30 --> 00:50:32 Daryl Parker of South Australia.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:36 Daryl says G' day, space nuts. I'm
00:50:36 --> 00:50:39 not sure of the best way to ask this question. So I'll
00:50:39 --> 00:50:41 just ask it the best way I can.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:44 That's usually the, the, the best way.
00:50:45 --> 00:50:48 do objects, meteors, asteroids,
00:50:48 --> 00:50:50 comets, planets, stars,
00:50:50 --> 00:50:52 solar systems and galaxies
00:50:53 --> 00:50:56 produce heat as they move through space? Is
00:50:56 --> 00:50:59 it friction or is friction a thing
00:50:59 --> 00:51:02 in the vacuum of speed, in the vacuum of space?
00:51:02 --> 00:51:05 Thank you in advance. And that's Daryl from South
00:51:05 --> 00:51:05 Australia.
00:51:07 --> 00:51:10 Professor Fred Watson: another, another great question. so
00:51:10 --> 00:51:13 if this, if space was a complete vacuum,
00:51:13 --> 00:51:16 and as I'll explain in a minute, it's not quite, but if it
00:51:16 --> 00:51:19 was a perfect vacuum with nothing in there,
00:51:20 --> 00:51:22 then, there would be no friction,
00:51:22 --> 00:51:25 as, Daryl's calling, would
00:51:25 --> 00:51:28 be, you know, there'd be
00:51:28 --> 00:51:31 nothing to, limit the speed of motion,
00:51:31 --> 00:51:34 of an object moving through it. And it wouldn't get hot. There would be
00:51:34 --> 00:51:37 no friction to heat it. and I think the way
00:51:37 --> 00:51:40 Daryl's thinking here, and he's quite right to, when a spacecra
00:51:40 --> 00:51:43 enters the Earth's atmosphere, it's the friction between
00:51:43 --> 00:51:45 the spacecraft itself moving against the air
00:51:45 --> 00:51:48 molecules that causes it to be heated and gives us this
00:51:48 --> 00:51:51 heat of reentry. There are a few subtleties to that, but that's
00:51:51 --> 00:51:53 basically the way it works. So things moving through an
00:51:53 --> 00:51:55 atmosphere get hot. now,
00:51:57 --> 00:51:59 space beyond the Earth's,
00:52:00 --> 00:52:02 atmosphere is not a vacuum.
00:52:03 --> 00:52:06 It's very nearly a vacuum. And that's why you can put a
00:52:06 --> 00:52:08 satellite up and it'll stay up for 200 years or
00:52:08 --> 00:52:11 whatever. And it's why the Moon doesn't come
00:52:11 --> 00:52:14 crashing down to Earth. In fact, the Moon's going the other way. It's moving away
00:52:14 --> 00:52:16 from the Earth, very slowly. but,
00:52:17 --> 00:52:19 it's nearly a vacuum, but it's not quite
00:52:20 --> 00:52:22 so There is
00:52:23 --> 00:52:25 basically a very, very
00:52:25 --> 00:52:28 slight breaking effect, which
00:52:28 --> 00:52:31 in the Earth's vicinity. The Earth's atmosphere doesn't just stop.
00:52:31 --> 00:52:34 It sort of fades away. So even, you know,
00:52:34 --> 00:52:37 even 10 kilometers away, there's still a little bit of
00:52:37 --> 00:52:40 residual atmosphere, which would have a slowing effect on a
00:52:40 --> 00:52:41 spacecraft. When you get into
00:52:42 --> 00:52:45 interplanetary space, there's a lot
00:52:45 --> 00:52:48 of dust and there's also subatomic
00:52:48 --> 00:52:51 particles there. When you get to interstellar space, the space
00:52:51 --> 00:52:54 between the stars, there is something that we call the
00:52:54 --> 00:52:56 interstellar medium, which is basically
00:52:57 --> 00:53:00 the radiation and particle environment
00:53:00 --> 00:53:03 of interstellar space. There are subatomic particles
00:53:03 --> 00:53:06 all through space. Now there, it's still so much
00:53:06 --> 00:53:09 of a vacuum that there's nothing really to heat
00:53:09 --> 00:53:12 a spacecraft. So Voyager, as it ventures
00:53:12 --> 00:53:14 through interstellar space, is on the brink of
00:53:14 --> 00:53:17 interstellar space. Now, that won't get hot because
00:53:17 --> 00:53:20 of that, because the friction is far too
00:53:20 --> 00:53:23 small. But when you do see its effects,
00:53:23 --> 00:53:26 they are on very big scales. And we do
00:53:26 --> 00:53:29 see, when we look at some objects
00:53:29 --> 00:53:32 deep in space, for example, in a gas cloud, a
00:53:32 --> 00:53:34 nebula where, maybe there are stars
00:53:34 --> 00:53:37 forming, sometimes you see objects which are moving through that gas
00:53:37 --> 00:53:40 cloud and what you can see is a shock wave,
00:53:41 --> 00:53:43 being generated. And sometimes that
00:53:43 --> 00:53:46 causes star formation, that shockwave of the gas
00:53:46 --> 00:53:49 cloud. now, yes, that's Jordi agreeing with
00:53:49 --> 00:53:52 me there. he's just come back from his walk, so
00:53:52 --> 00:53:55 he's very enthusiastic about this idea. he's
00:53:55 --> 00:53:58 probably seen the shockwave. So, and a shockwave
00:53:58 --> 00:54:01 is what you get when something moves rapidly through the atmosphere. You
00:54:01 --> 00:54:03 know, that's what causes the sonic boom of a supersonic
00:54:03 --> 00:54:06 jet. so with very big
00:54:06 --> 00:54:09 objects in gas clouds in space,
00:54:09 --> 00:54:12 then you do get that sort of effect. The
00:54:12 --> 00:54:14 interaction between the moving object and its
00:54:14 --> 00:54:17 surroundings generates a shockwave and would generate
00:54:17 --> 00:54:20 heat as well. So under certain circumstances the answer is
00:54:20 --> 00:54:23 yes, Darrell. But, but probably for most things it's
00:54:23 --> 00:54:23 no.
00:54:25 --> 00:54:28 Heidi Campo: So, Fred, I don't know if you'd have time for a follow up question
00:54:29 --> 00:54:30 of my own.
00:54:32 --> 00:54:35 so I guess I never really thought of, the
00:54:35 --> 00:54:38 gravity atmosphere around planets
00:54:38 --> 00:54:40 having different layers. It's like, I knew there was layers, but it's like
00:54:40 --> 00:54:43 to really think, okay, it gets thinner and thinner and
00:54:43 --> 00:54:46 thinner, but there's still particles being pulled into that atmosphere.
00:54:46 --> 00:54:49 But it just, it spreads out quite a ways
00:54:49 --> 00:54:52 well beyond our atmosphere. Are there points of
00:54:52 --> 00:54:55 space, and you may have already mentioned this, but are there points of space where
00:54:55 --> 00:54:58 there's particles floating around that are not being affected by
00:54:58 --> 00:55:01 any gravity at all? Or is every
00:55:01 --> 00:55:04 part of space affected by something's
00:55:04 --> 00:55:04 gravity?
00:55:05 --> 00:55:08 Professor Fred Watson: yeah, pretty well. the thing about gravity is it,
00:55:08 --> 00:55:11 it goes on for infinity. it's
00:55:11 --> 00:55:14 it's a bit like actually light is the same.
00:55:14 --> 00:55:17 Electromagnetic radiation will not stop. It just keeps going
00:55:17 --> 00:55:20 until it gets too weak to be detected. And you're talking
00:55:20 --> 00:55:23 about a dribble of hardly any photons.
00:55:23 --> 00:55:26 Gravity is the same. We don't know whether gravity
00:55:26 --> 00:55:29 has a subatomic particle equivalent. We think it might have,
00:55:29 --> 00:55:32 and we call them gravitons, but they haven't been discovered yet.
00:55:32 --> 00:55:35 But yes, that's actually, you know,
00:55:35 --> 00:55:37 it's why, an object like
00:55:37 --> 00:55:40 Pluto, way out there in the depths of the solar system,
00:55:40 --> 00:55:43 is still in orbit around the sun. Even though
00:55:43 --> 00:55:46 it's all these, what is it, five, six billion
00:55:46 --> 00:55:49 kilometers away, the gravity of the sun
00:55:49 --> 00:55:51 is still a force because
00:55:52 --> 00:55:55 gravity goes on forever. but, of course,
00:55:55 --> 00:55:58 when you get way out into interstellar
00:55:58 --> 00:56:01 space, then you might feel the sun's gravity, but you'd also
00:56:01 --> 00:56:03 feel the gravity of other stars. and
00:56:03 --> 00:56:06 so I think you're right that there is always going to be a sort of
00:56:06 --> 00:56:09 gravity background ground, because of the objects
00:56:09 --> 00:56:12 which are in the, in the universe. Maybe it's
00:56:12 --> 00:56:14 pretty near zero in the space between
00:56:14 --> 00:56:17 galaxies, which is pretty empty. Although there are
00:56:17 --> 00:56:20 subatomic particles there too. but,
00:56:20 --> 00:56:23 yeah, but no, it's a, it's a very, a, very
00:56:23 --> 00:56:25 compelling force is gravity, which is just as well
00:56:25 --> 00:56:28 because otherwise we wouldn't exist.
00:56:28 --> 00:56:31 Heidi Campo: There's always something pulling. It's just going to
00:56:31 --> 00:56:34 be stronger or weaker. No matter if it's.
00:56:34 --> 00:56:37 No matter if it's the biggest gap in
00:56:37 --> 00:56:40 the known cosmos,
00:56:40 --> 00:56:43 there's still a little thread pulling us together.
00:56:43 --> 00:56:46 Oh, that's so beautiful. That's kind of cool. We're all connected
00:56:46 --> 00:56:46 somehow.
00:56:47 --> 00:56:49 Professor Fred Watson: That's a connection. That's right. Yeah.
00:56:49 --> 00:56:52 Heidi Campo: Fred, well, this has been a
00:56:53 --> 00:56:55 very enlightening Q and A episode
00:56:55 --> 00:56:58 of Space Nuts. Thank you so much for
00:56:59 --> 00:57:01 sharing your wealth of knowledge with us.
00:57:02 --> 00:57:05 while you're. Rooster. I'm sorry? Your dog sings
00:57:05 --> 00:57:06 his song in the background.
00:57:07 --> 00:57:10 Professor Fred Watson: That's what he sounds like. I know. It's, His voice hasn't broken
00:57:10 --> 00:57:10 yet.
00:57:12 --> 00:57:14 Heidi Campo: It's, it's kind of cute. It's endearing. thank you so
00:57:14 --> 00:57:17 much. This has been, this has been fantastic. And, we
00:57:17 --> 00:57:20 will, we will, I guess, catch you guys next
00:57:20 --> 00:57:23 time. Please keep sending in your amazing
00:57:23 --> 00:57:25 questions. And, real quick before we go,
00:57:25 --> 00:57:27 we are going to play a, another,
00:57:29 --> 00:57:32 another update for you. So this is your little treat for
00:57:32 --> 00:57:35 listening to the whole thing. We've got an update from Andrew,
00:57:35 --> 00:57:38 your beloved regular host. I know you
00:57:38 --> 00:57:40 guys probably miss him because your questions are still
00:57:41 --> 00:57:44 addressed to him, but, he's on his trip around
00:57:44 --> 00:57:47 the world, so we're gonna let that, that, that playback now.
00:57:47 --> 00:57:50 Andrew Dunkley: Hi, Fred. Hi, Heidi. And hello, Huw
00:57:50 --> 00:57:51 in the studio.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:54 Andrew, back again, reporting from the Crown
00:57:54 --> 00:57:57 Princess on our world tour. since I spoke to you
00:57:57 --> 00:58:00 last, our cruise has made news all over
00:58:00 --> 00:58:03 Australia. You might have seen some of the reports or heard some of
00:58:03 --> 00:58:05 the news about some of the, the conditions we've had to
00:58:05 --> 00:58:08 deal with. When I last spoke to you, I was explaining
00:58:08 --> 00:58:11 how we were heading into rough weather. We got off to a pretty
00:58:11 --> 00:58:14 rocky start. Well, it got much,
00:58:14 --> 00:58:17 much worse. We were having lunch in
00:58:17 --> 00:58:20 one of the restaurants at the back of the ship ship and
00:58:20 --> 00:58:23 we got hit by a weather front. It felt like we'd
00:58:23 --> 00:58:26 been rammed and the, the ship tilted
00:58:26 --> 00:58:29 over 7 degrees and it stayed there for the
00:58:29 --> 00:58:32 rest of the day. It just hit us out of
00:58:32 --> 00:58:35 nowhere. The captain had to do some heavy maneuvering
00:58:35 --> 00:58:37 to get us into a, you know, better position
00:58:38 --> 00:58:41 and they had to move the ballast to
00:58:41 --> 00:58:44 keep the ship balanced and upright. Fight as much
00:58:44 --> 00:58:46 as they could. yeah, it was pretty harrowing.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:49 And the weather never got better
00:58:50 --> 00:58:52 until we got into Adelaide and were in protected
00:58:52 --> 00:58:55 waters. But the Adelaide was fantastic. Went to
00:58:55 --> 00:58:58 Handorf as I mentioned, that little German village where
00:58:58 --> 00:59:01 the, the German people came in all those years ago. They
00:59:01 --> 00:59:03 were they were basically escaping
00:59:04 --> 00:59:07 Prussian oppression when they came out here in the 1800s.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:10 And yeah, made it, made a German town town which is fantastic.
00:59:10 --> 00:59:13 had a good look around Adelaide although the weather was terrible. We went to
00:59:13 --> 00:59:16 Mount Lofty which is one of the best views in Australia. And all
00:59:16 --> 00:59:19 we saw was cloud and very strong
00:59:19 --> 00:59:21 winds. It was it was quite nasty.
00:59:22 --> 00:59:25 Got back on board. We had to stay the night in Adelaide because
00:59:25 --> 00:59:27 of the conditions, hoping they'd settle down. And we, we did have
00:59:27 --> 00:59:30 some good sailing until we got to the
00:59:30 --> 00:59:33 West Australian border and then another weather front
00:59:33 --> 00:59:36 hit us and it got rough again
00:59:37 --> 00:59:39 and yeah, gosh. And just to top it all
00:59:39 --> 00:59:42 off, we had a galley fire in the middle of the night at one
00:59:42 --> 00:59:45 point which they dealt with very, very quickly. So it's been a
00:59:45 --> 00:59:48 bit of a dog's breakfast of a cruise in
00:59:48 --> 00:59:51 some respects. But we're still having a fantastic time.
00:59:51 --> 00:59:54 We stopped at Fremantle again, because of the
00:59:54 --> 00:59:57 weather. We were very late and so we stayed the night. We have
00:59:57 --> 01:00:00 friends in Fremantle so we spent the evening with them. It was
01:00:00 --> 01:00:03 fantastic. And we set sail again
01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 yesterday, headed west. We leave Australia
01:00:06 --> 01:00:08 now, headed for Mauritius. That'll be a seven day
01:00:08 --> 01:00:10 crossing of the Indian Ocean.
01:00:11 --> 01:00:14 So that's where things are at with our current tour.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:18 we're really enjoying ourselves, I must confess.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:20 The crew here is fantastic
01:00:20 --> 01:00:23 and you know, with over 2 Aussies on on board,
01:00:23 --> 01:00:26 we outnumber everybody about 10 to 1 which is,
01:00:26 --> 01:00:29 which is good. But so many nationalities. Hope
01:00:29 --> 01:00:32 all is well back home and in Houston of course.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:35 Heidi, look forward to talking to you next time. no,
01:00:35 --> 01:00:38 Aurora Australis missed out completely. Couldn't see that.
01:00:38 --> 01:00:41 So hopefully when we get up north, we'll see the other end
01:00:41 --> 01:00:44 of the, country and see if there's any
01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 lights up north. So until next time,
01:00:46 --> 01:00:48 Andrew Dunkley signing off. Off.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:52 Voice Over Guy: You've been listening to the Space Nuts. Podcast,
01:00:53 --> 01:00:56 available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast
01:00:59 --> 01:01:01 player. You can also stream on
01:01:01 --> 01:01:04 demand at bitesz.com. This has been another
01:01:04 --> 01:01:07 quality podcast production from bitesz.com
01:01:08 --> 01:01:09 Heidi Campo: see you later, Fred.
01:01:09 --> 01:01:10 Professor Fred Watson: Sounds great.