#465: Fred's New Frontier, Artemis Landing Zones & Ryugu's Revealing Secrets

Hi there, Thanks for joining us on another episode of Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Uncley, your host, and great to have your company, as I tend to say, well you know, I ever say it's not great to have your company. You know. We're done for now. Who was that voice in the background. Now? We a lot to talk about today, and one of those things is the future of Fred. Yes, Fred's future it's about to change. Is he leaving us? Tell you in a minute, Artemis. Three landing sites have been announced. There are I think about nine of them. We're going to look at some new data from the asteroid Reugu, which could shed more light on how life ended up here. And the study of Titan's moon Saturn's moon Titan. They're saying it might rewrite planetary science. That's a biggie all coming up on the next episode of Space Nuts right now. Fifteen, Channel ten nine ignition sig Wes Space Nuts or three two one Space Nurse. Hasn't I reported? Neil Good and here he is to tell all Professor Fred, what's hell out bread? Are you doing? Andrew? Good to see you again. Good to see you too. My question should be how you doing? Because today's a big day for you. It is, Yes, it's a it's a day of some note in my life. But the story starts actually on the sixteenth of July nineteen seventy three when I became a staff astronomer at the Royal Grandwich Observatory in the United Kingdom, because that is when I joined the British Public Service, and effectively i've been there ever since except it switched to the Australian Public Service in twenty ten, so I've been a public servant Andrew for fifty one years and from my and it comes to an end today. So so my role as the nation's astronomer, the Australian Government's Astronomer at large, which I've had since twenty eighteen, so it's six years that i've been in that job. It's coming to an end. So I am going to leave the public service. I'm not leaving astronomy. I'm moving to a new role in one of the universities here in Sydney, which I'm extremely excited about. But it means that i'll be able to well, certainly be able to carry on with space. Nothing will change there. But it also does mean that from outside the government, when you're working not in the government, but you're working outside, you might be able to have more influence, believe it or not, in terms of advocating for the way we hope Australian astronomy will go. Getting the message out that astronomy is a good thing and that people like it and want it to be supported. All of that's easier to do outside the government than inside. So in that regard, it's a good thing. I'm sad about it. Of course, thirty first of October twenty twenty four is as notable as the sixteenth of July nineteen seventy three. Yeah, so it's you know what I'm I guess I'm sad about is the colleagues that I've worked with over the last six and a half years, six years and four months. A fabulous bunch of people. Public servants are that they're a breed on their own. I guess they essentially, you know, provide all the information that the government needs to make up its mind on its policies, and they are very very professional about it, and they're nice people. I've had made some great friendships with the people down in Canberra, which is where I've been based. Although I live in Sydney, so it's all been done over the internet. But yeah, we had a little party yesterday down I was down there yesterday, drove back yesterday afternoon. We had a bit of a celebration, some cake and nice coffee and things like that. And they bit me on the way. There's another one today actually last day. In fact, immediately after this podcast recording, I'll be joining my colleagues online just to say a virtual farewell to the ones who are scattered over the country. There are people in Western Australia, South Australia, all over the place. Wow. Gee, it's the end of an era, Fred, And I'd say congratulations, first of all for all of those decades in astronomy and surviving that long in the public service. That's a feed in itself. But I suppose the good news is that you are not retiring. We want to make that a very solid point. This is not the end of your astronomy career, because if it was, you'd go from being an astronomer at large to a large astronomer. Oh yes, that's probably right. So I I actually should just highlight one of the one of the jokes that one of my colleagues made quite some years ago when I was the new Astronomer at large, because I sent them a photograph. I skipped out for lunch down on the beach one day here in the Northern Beaches and came back and took to them online and said, I said, this is where I had lunch. And this gentleman his name was Bence Candreck, really nice guy. He said, oh you're you're the astronomer A Laplage turned it into the French version Astronomer on the Beach, which quite like. That's very funny. Yeah, And just to prove the point, that's not a door behind Fred. If you're watching a video stream, that's actually a very well disguised Malibu surfboard. It is a most people don't notice that. Oh that's why I'm in journalism. Yes, got to pick up on these things. Well, we wish you well, Fred, and there'll be more to announce down the track when things start shift. But yeah, it's been a wonderful, wonderful public service career and you should be very very proud, and I'm glad I was able to be a part of that for a few years as well. Nice to hear and thank you very much for that and I mean you and I are going to go on forever probably, so that's all right. Yeah, we're planning on a couple of billion years because we just so much want to see that collision between Andromeda and the Milky Way galaxy. So you're hanging and hanging on for that. Some other exciting news is and this sort of falls at the same time as China has launched a mission to test Moon bricks for their future base up there. The race back to the Moon is really ramping up. The Chinese I think of fired a pretty heavy volley that NASA needs to respond to. Well. I don't know if this is their response, but they've certainly made a major announcement they've looked at key landing sites for Artemus III. Indeed they have, yes, sir. So this is not really a response to anything. It's just part of the process that the mission planners go through when you are planning something as big as Artemis three, which people will remember is the first landing of humans on the Moon since nineteen seventy two, and will have four NASA astronauts walking around the South polar region of the Moon. That's what makes this challenging, Andrew, because you know, all the Apollo landings were in the middle latitude region of the Moon, where a landscape is relatively flat. There were mountains there, there were a few sort of highland peaks that they landed on, but the south pole region of the Moon is quite different. It's very very pop marked with craters, a lot of mountains, a lot of you know, evidence of past geological history, and of course that's one of the reasons why they're going there to be able to sample the geology of the Moon's south Pole. So the landing zones that have been identified, what they've done is they've they've sorted them out, taking into account factors and I'm quoting NASA here. Factors in the selection process included science, potential, launch window, availability, terrain suitability, you don't want to land on a mountaintop, communication capabilities with earth, and lighting conditions, so all of those things have to go in the mix. What was them, sorry, what was that last one? Lighting conditions? Yes, that's right, because you don't want to be working completely in the dark, and you could be if you're at the Moon's south pole. Worked out worked out okay for Pink Floyd. It did, Yeah, but they you know they were in a different universe. I think so probably will Yeah, so actually I might just continue the quote from NASA because it's a nice way of doing this. Additionally, the team assessed the combined trajectory capabilities of NASA's SLS, the Spence Launch System rocket, the Orion spacecraft that's the crew module, the equivalent of the Apollo, you know, the Apollo crew capsule, and the Starship HLS, which HLS is Human Landing System, and of course Starship is the machine that we've seen recently having test flights powered into orbit, in fact by the Falcon super heavy booster which made that spectacular landing last month. Is this month's being grabbed by the chopsticks. So all that's got to come together to ensure safe and accessible landing sites. The Artemis three geology team I'm still reading, evaluated the landing regions for their scientific prop with sites within each of the nine identified regions have the potential to provide key new insights into our understanding of rocky planets, lunar resources, and the history of our Solar system. So it's really big picture stuff and all of that feeds into the decision as to where you put the next landing site on the Moon. Yeah, and I'm guessing this strategic value in being on the North or South Pole is an ico. Therefore you can get water, therefore you can make rocket fuel. I think that's it in a nutshell, Andrew. The South Pole is a place where we know there is water ice from orbital measurements and actually the Indian spacecraft that was was it an Indian one I think contact with Yeah, it crashed into the surface and you could see water, the signature of water in the in the plume that resented from that. So yes, that's what sets it. South Pole, apart from the North Pole, is actually much rockier, much more, much more creceard, and the craters are deep enough that we think there is what you might call primordial water, water that was dumped there by comets. You know, it's the water that was originally in the gas cloud that formed the Solar system, so quite quite a legacy. And just what would you like to get hold of some of that and melt it down and have a drink. Well, we I think we did a discussion about that, didn't we about whether it will be drinkable. I'd be up for it, Yeah, I'd be game a bit of moon water. You never know what it might do to your insides. But hopefully I grow some some antennas or something like that. Maybe or you'll turn into cheese and. More already cheese. You know, you mentioned India and that just sort of prompted a memory, a thought in my mind. Hugh in the studio messaged me the other day. So we've picked up some strong audience indicators from from India. So hello to all our Indian listeners. Believe it or not, I will be in India in about a month, so I'll look look out for me. I'll be I'll be wearing this shirt. He's only got one shirt, folks, Sally shirt I've got. So yes, I'll be visiting several places throughout India while i'm over there, so that'll be lovely. But if you're in India, salutations, thanks for watching, and sorry about the cricket. Yeah they got they got hammered by New Zealand's right, yeah, unheard of, unheard of, and then they've got they've got to follow that up with a tour of Australia. So yeah, but we haven't won. We haven't won the trophy from them in quite a long time, so this will be a key series for both sites, So looking forward to that. My favorite sport to watch on TV is cricket. Yeah, love forget that. Yes, so Artemis three landing sites, but we still don't know when do we? Late twenty twenty six is my guess. I think for that crude landing late next year for Artemis two, which will be you know, a crude flight but warm land on the Moon. It will go around them, it'll do an Apollo eight, the Sally alone. Oh there it is by yeah bye, except Christmas all way, Christmas Christmas Day, it. Was it was I remember it well, yeah, nineteen sixty age, Yeah, yep. Gosh, so long ago, so long ago. Yeah. Okay, if you would like to look into that little story about the Artemis two Atamis three landing sites, it's on well it's on all sorts of stories, but you can get it at space connect online, dot com dot au. This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunkley and Professor Fred Watson. Broad Space Nuts. Now, Fred, we're going to revisit the asteroid Reugu, which we've spoken about a couple of times, but it's in the news again because they've been able to do a bit more study on the on the stuff that was brought back. I think was a Japanese mission, was it not? Indeed? And they have found out some interesting things and it all sort of leads to piecing together the puzzle of life on Earth. Indeed it does, and so was Jacks of the Japanese Space Agency who's higher books of two mission collected samples from Riugu and return them to Earth in twenty twenty. And then in fact we in Australia played the party in that the Space Agency had a role in that, because I think I'm right in saying that they returned to Earth not far from Boomera in South Australia. Oh that's right, now, it must have been a different mission where I thought we just made the sausage rolls for the party afterwards. A bit there, Okay, yeah, yes, that was a serious rex. I think that you're thinking, which was a nasubmission and we did make the sausages. Yeah. So, but you know, twenty twenty, that's four years ago. It takes a long time to analyze these samples and get the detail. But there is some really interesting news from one of the French universities actually where some of the researchers are based, along with some researchers from the Upper University in the UK, and it turns out that there are grains of something that is called HAMP. Not hemp, you preempted me. Yeah, yeah, and is an acronym for hydrated ammonium magnesium and phosphorus rich and phosphorus. Yeah, hydrated ammonium magnesium and phosphorus h A m p H. And it turns out that that is a compound that is highly soluble in water. And if you're trying to get nutrients into you know, living organisms that are formed on a water base, and all life on Earth is water based, that this is a really important way of doing it to have something that will easily dissolve. And so the suggestion is that we know that these asteroids like Riugu are remnants of the early material of the Solar system there, you know, the sort of scraps of dusts that were left over when the planets formed, and it's the raw material of planets that we looking at, really, but it means that if they are rich in these hydrated ammonium magnesium and phosphorus, and that's a soluble basically a soluble thing. Maybe in the very early Earth when it was being bombarded from all sides by asteroidal material like this, maybe that's where these chemicals came from that provided nutrients for any early life forms. Basically as Psyitech Daily which has reported this, as they say, creating the right conditions for life to emerge. I might quote actually if I may, from doctor Richard Greenwood, who's at the Open University in the UK. Richard says, our study reveals how the building blocks of life were likely transported from the outer Solar System to Earth. Material returned from primitive asteroids like Riugu is providing new insights into how our planet was transformed from a barren in the hospitable world to a water rich oasis continuing all the ingredients needed for life to emerge very nicely. It's sort of like I always equate life to being always out there and potentially available if the conditions are right, if the place is right, if everything's right, life will will find a way. And I back that up with you know how weeds will grow just about anywhere they damn alive. But it's true, like I've seen weeds growing in the weirdest places, but they got a foothold because the conditions were right and they found somewhere to grow. And I think, you know, you can take that little weed analogy and turn it into a planetary evolution. I honestly believe that. And I think everything, all the formulas that exist to create life, it exist across the universe is just a matter of finding somewhere to plant it. And we just happen to be one of the or the only place so far where we can confirm life exists. It's not very bright, but it's here. We are here. It's got lots of hampers, well sorry, hamp not hemp. A lot. I think you're probably right. It has to be said that we simply don't know whether that's the case or not. But that's I think a very plausible assumption. I think it's a reasonable thing to assume that if the conditions are right, life will start. I'm just turning my fan on because it's getting quite warm in my office today because I think we're going to hit thirty something degrees today and it's starting to magnify through my window. Yeah, but Riugu's probably been a keystone mission in trying to solve these riddles. Of life, and it keeps, as you say, it keeps coming up with new information the more they they study it. When you know, when they first got the samples back, they went out's dirt and the Kitcat wrapper. So you know, they've come a long way in four years. I wonder if anybody's analyzed the KitKat wrapper that could. Be that, you know, that that that's more weight to string theory. I think maybe I would, Yes, it certainly would. Yes. Is there more to learn from rig? I'm sure this is ongoing research. You know, we've learned a lot about it, not just the what it's made of, but we've learned a lot about that particular class of asteroids that Ugu is a part of. It's a it's a rubble pile, and you know, just the images that came back from it showing this object shape like an old fashioned spinning top that was sort of like two cones back to back, and that now we think is the characteristic shape for rubble pile asteroids. So all that sort of thing comes from studies that have been made. I think that there's probably still more to come from the you know, from the soil samples too. It also suggested that UGU could be evidence of how Earth's got it's water. And we've talked about this many times because there's all sorts of different theories about where the water came from. It's possible all of them are correct, but one of them was the fact that as the planet came together, all of that staff already had water in it, which eventually leached out and became the oceans and the ice caps and everything else. I think you're right. I think it is a mixture of that, plus you know, comets coming in and dumping water into the into the environment, to the planet. Yeah, So I think, and I guess what supports that is. We know that the isotopic ratios on Earth's water, the ratio of normal water to heavy water quite much, most of the isotopic ratios in commons except in a few cases. So there's obviously a mixed foot, you know, a mixture of foot there as well. So I think you're right. I think it's probably a combination. Interesting all right. So, yes, lots has been learned from asteroid Reyuga, but there's probably more to come. But it certainly seems that it's carrying evidence to show that we are here because of those kinds of collisions in the deep dark past. And if you'd like to read about it, it's as Fred said on the SYE Tech Daily website, space Nuts, and that story dovetails beautifully into our final story, which is also on si Tech Daily. And this is some information they've uncovered about the moon Titan, which is one of Saturn's largest moons, and what they've found out, and this I'll steal straight from the headline, could rewrite planetary science thread. That's a big call. It is, yes, it's but it's really interesting results. And you're right, Titan is well, it's the largest of Saturn's moons. It's the second largest moon in the Solar System after Ganymede, which is Jupiter's biggest moon. So what's the story here? And this comes from research carried out by scientists at the University of Hawaii at Manoah place I know reasonably well from when I used to have to observe on the summit of mard Care back in the day. These scientists have noted that compared with and indeed compare with moons like Ganymede, they Titan has fewer craters than Ganymede by a long shot, and also that they are the ones that are there, and they can only identify ninety of them. That's much less than Ganymede and most of the other moons with craters. It shows that sorry, sorry, of the craters and the ninety craters that have been found on Titan, it turns out that they are much shallower than what you would expect and what you find on other moons. So you've got few craters and the ones that are there are shallow. And so what these scientists have done is put those two facts together, and one of the scientists is quoted as saying, this was very surprising because based on other moons, we expect to see many more impact craters on the surface and that are much deeper than what we observe on Titan. We realized something unique to Titan must be making them become shallower and disappear relatively quickly. And that's at the heart of what planetary scientists do when they look at a surface of the Moon, I, a moon or a planet. It's the number of craters that you can see that tell you how old the surfaces. The older the surface, the more craters you've got. So the sun, sorry, the Moon is certainly a south polar region where it's heavily craated. That's a very old surface. Indeed, it goes back to the first billion years of the Solar System. And yet on Titan we're looking at something quite different. Now we know that ice worlds like Titan, and by that I mean a world that is a rocky core, an ocean overlaying it and ice overlaying the ocean. Worlds like that do tend to have relatively recent surfaces because the surface is constantly being modified by sometimes by plumes of ice that come up through cracks in the surface, as we find on Enceladus and Europa, but also just because of the you know the fact that if you've got an icy surface, it's subject to different geological processes from what rock would be. It doesn't preserve, it doesn't preserve structures anywhere near as well. But on Titan and Gannymite too has an ice surface. We believe that it's an ice world as well. Yet it's got far more creators than Titan does. So that's a really interesting judgment that's been made. We realize something unique to Titan must be making them become shallower and disappear relatively quickly. And so what they've done is they've done a lot of computer modeling and sort of suggested that maybe there is an insulating layer on the outside of the ice. And what they're pointing to is something called methane clath rate. Cloth rate is basically methane is water ice, but with methane gas trapped in it, which gives it a different formation and different properties. So you know, it's much more of an insulator than the ice would be. And so they've modeled it and they find that the likelihood is that there is a layer of methane clath rates a crust which is five to ten kilometers three to six miles thick, because that produces, you know, the computer simulations that produces the crater depths that are actually most like the ones that we find in reality. And are they suggesting that the atmosphere of Titan is coming from deep inside with an insulating layer of water ice? Did I read correctly or I've got my wires crust? I think they there's certainly a comment in the article that I've read that, and in fact I might quote from it. This is from Cyitec Daily. They say, estimating the thickness of the methane ice shell is important because it may explain the origin of Titan's methane rich atmosphere and helps researchers understand Titan's carbon cycle. It's liquid methane based hydrological cycle and changing climate. You know, it's a really interesting, really interesting world because we can study climate change, you know, from the outside. Another quote from the lead author in this paper, Titan is a natural laboratory to study how greenhouse how the greenhouse gas methane worms and cycles through the atmosphere. There you go. Yeah, I highlighted that exact quote. And they even compare what's happening on Titan to what's happening in regard to the perma frost of Siberia. So even on Earth we're witnessing these kinds of cycles. Yes, that's right, and once again, you know, it points to I think it enhances the possibility that we might find life in the Titan's liquid water ocean because the temperature is probably a bit higher than we thought it was because he's got this insulating layer on the outside. So exciting stuff. Ah, Yes, that would be a thrill to find life on Titan. Of course, they've got some missions slated for studying titans undersurface ocean and look for biomarkers and learn more about it. It's pretty exciting time. Of course, We've we've got missions Europa clippers on its way. Yeah, there's there's so much to learn out there, and it just never ever can say no, there's no life anywhere else, because there might be something there. We hope we find it or at least indicators of it. We found indicators of potential life, have we not? I mean, yeah, which, but that's the trouble. You know, what we call biomarc is these indicators, they're not it's really hard to pin them down to be things that could only occur because of life rather than you know, through normal sort of chemistry rather than biochemistry. Indeed, all right side Tech Daily again, as we mentioned, is where you can read up on that story of Titan. Although I've noticed that the story has been popping up on all sorts of news platforms because it's pretty exciting to find out something that might be a bit different than what we first thought, so you might want to check that out. It brings us to the end of the show, Fred, Thank you, and not only for today, but for the last five hundred million years that you've been doing your job. It must feel like I feel like. I only did it twenty two years in the public service, and it felt like a lot longer. But looking back, it just happened so fast. You know, it's that's right, I have to say, Andrew. You know I've not been a real public servant because I've been an astronomer first and foremost. But I'm paid from the public person. That makes me a public servant. It's mixing with real professional public servants as I have done over the last six years. That teaches me a lot actually about how the public service works and what I should have been doing for the forty nine years before that. It generally works with an eight ur coffee break when you get to work, and then I can go from there. I will go there. You can tomorrow, Yes, come tomorrow. Yeah, that's right, all right, Thanks Fred, We'll catch up doing jeans. It sounds great. Thanks Andrew, Professor fured Wat's an astronomer at large. And thanks to Hugh in the UDIO for keeping it all together. Because if there is a problem, Hugh's name is spelled Huw and we just type huw st o N we have a problem. Figure that one out And for me Andrew Donkley, thanks for your company. Don't forget to check out our website, check out our social media platforms, check out our shop, all via our website or Facebook or Instagram or whatever, and we'll catch you on the very next episode of Space Nuts soon see you then bye bye. You'll be listening to the Space Nuts podcast available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player. You can also stream on demand at bytes dot com. This has been another quality podcast production from nights dot com.