#405: Martian Mysteries & Moon-Sized Marvels: Unveiling Mars' Ancient Atmosphere & The Tiniest Exoplanet

Hi there, Thanks for joining us. This is Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunkley, your host. It's really good to have your company. On this episode, we're going to be looking into a new report that suggests that, you know, things happened on Mars a long time ago that have added more evidence to the possibility that it could have harbored life or at least started to make progress towards having some form of life. And it involves a chemical I suppose that you know and probably don't love. We're also going to be looking at the smallest exoplanet ever found. Will it retain that title for long? The word is possibly not. Will explain why very soon on this episode of Space Nuts fifteen, Channel ten nine ignition sequence Space Nuts or three two one Street Nurse when I've re bought it. Neil's good and joining us to talk about all of that and much much more is Professor Fred Watson, an astronomer at large. Hello Fred, Hello Andrews. Yes, still at large. Everybody thinks it's a joke total, but it's actually that's my job. Yeah it is. Yes, Well used to be in astronomer in charge, but there was no one to be in charge of after a while. Well, I had to had to redesignate you, yah, something like that. It happens, It happens. So how you been, I mean to the unwary. We've been together every week for the last several weeks, but I've actually just come back from Egypt, so you have, and I'm very anxious to hear how it went. Well, I'll start with the bad news. I think I caught COVID, so I spent most of that trip actually under the weather. But on top of that, what a fascinating place, what incredible history, and I don't know what to tell you was the best thing I saw the Pyramids and the Sphinx go without saying the Valley of the Kings was extraordinary, getting down into the tombs in the Valley of the Kings and seeing the elaborate artwork and the hieroglyphics, and and some of the things that they did to try and trick the grave robbers, like little sand traps and wells and false sarcophagus and false walls, and just so many amazing things that they did to ward off the looters. The Civilization Museum was an eye opener for me because that's where the mummies are. There's only actually one mummy that's remained in the Valley of the Kings. Do you know which one it was? I don't know, couldn't is the way they pronounce it. Yeah, he's still there because his body is too delicate to move around. The rest of them are in a museum in Cairo called the Civilization Museum. Highly recommend that because you can actually go down under the main exhibition flow and walk from one chamber to another and get up close and personal with the pharaohs and they're all there. They're all there, all the Ramesses. There's a whole bunch of them, including the famous Rameses, the second and just so many And yeah, real eye opener. Luxor, I really I really liked Luxor and the temples. I'm pretty well templed out. I don't have any we went to, but we saw a lot. But they but they're all part of the story and that's what it was about to try and piece together this amazing hit street. We even went to a granite quarry where they mind pink granite to create those famous obelisks. And is that the one where there's anobylisk that's still half finished? Yeah, And it's split, it broke, so it's still lying down in Lindown, Yes, in the ground, not completely cut out of the ground. So they've given up their project. But can I show you something hang on a s wherever I go, if there's a rock worth collecting, I get one. So that that is a piece of pink granite from the ancient granite quarry in Luxow. You've probably just broken the law, probably showing the start it kind of get space onl of the court. It's allegedly a piece of allegedly Yeah, yeah, but yeah, what an amazing place. And we did a river cruise on the night island, spent three nights on the boat, and then we went to a red Sea resort and hung out there. Someone said to me, someone said to me, I'll be really keen to see how you feel when you come back as to whether or not you really believe the Egyptians could have built the Pyramids. That's a really that's not a nice question. Yeah. I think Cairo surprised me. I didn't expect it to be quite as what's the term, quite as third world as it was, and yet just up the road they're building New Cairo, which is modern and dynamic, and there is an astronomical connection there, Fred that you were telling us. Yes, So of course when we were there in twenty eighteen, part of our tour, which money put in especially for me, it was to visit a telescope. It's actually quite close to my house. It's a big telescope at a place called Kotamia, if I remember rightly, it's hell onan is the nearest is the nearest place. It's seventy four inch telescope, a you know, a large one, classic of its time. But unfortunately the new Cairo is going to essentially brighten a bit skies to the extent because of light pollution, to the extent that it won't be viable anymore, which is a great shame because telescope was last a long time. This one was built in the fifties and it's still going strong. Yeah. Yeah, well, having seen what they've done, I was told two years ago it was nothing, it was just desert. And now you've got this, just this megacity, thirteen lane highways. It's just extraordinary what they've done. So yes, I do believe that the Egyptians built the pyramids. Yeah, not Aliens, definitely, not Aliens. It wasn't just I know I've spent a bit too much time on this, but I'll just tell you a little bit about issues with language and translation. Had an incident where I was We were staying at a hotel and I asked for the Wi Fi password, so they gave me a menu. I twice asked for white wine and got red wine. I once asked for coffee and got tea. And we asked one of our guides what the length of the Gaza Road was, because you know, obviously we're interested in where Gaza was, and he said, that's the Gaza Road and it's five thousand kilometers long, and I went, yeah, maybe not seeing Gaza was three hundred and fifty kilometers. And the other funny thing we asked him the population of Cairo, and I think he knew, but he couldn't put it into the right words, so apparently there are thirty thousand people living in Cairo. A bit. It was a lot of those language issues as well. It was Yeah, it was definitely an amazing trip, and we felt safe. You know, they're very careful over there and never really felt there were any issues or dangers, and they take security pretty seriously. Too, so yeah, it was it was a good trip. Pide I got sick early and had to live with that all the way through. And now jet lag. So I'm sitting here with both at the moment. So apologies if I disappear, and it's okay, it's just it's just mucus, nothing of Now we've got a lot to do and I've bart a lot of time, so let's get into our first topic. And this has everything to do with Mars and it's past and the possibility that it could have, at some stage in its history harbored life. And a new paper has been published which adds a little bit more weight to that theory. Yes, that's right, and it comes from japan Japanese researchers who've done some modeling of what Mars's ancient atmosphere might have been like and what they've what they've done, and by that I mean the period I think it's called the Noatian period if I remember something like that anyway, against what is the no Ocean period. Now, yes, that's right. And when there was there was liquid water on the surface because the pressure was higher than it is now, the temperature was warmer than it is now. And what we're talking about is a period. In fact it is it's that early period from about three point eight to three point six billion years ago. And once these scientists have done is looked at the kind of gases that are coming out of volcanoes and what they contain. And basically you've got things like hydrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and water. And they've sort of envisage that these chemicals would have been in Mars's early atmosphere, and what they've modeled is how they would change. And it turns out that because of solar radiation, the photons that come from the sun, you get chemical reactions. For example, carbon dioxide turns into carbon monoxide, hydrogen, sorry, water turns into hydrogen and oxygen. You put all these things together and you get formaldehyde, which is very well known chemical that we think of as a preservative for specimens in jars. Did the Egyptians use for maldehyde? I wouldn't be surprised, I think so it's probably in mummification. Yes, that's right. So when you take when you take that modeling, yes you get formaldehyde. You you can probably then dissolve that in the you know, the water oceans. But either way, the existence of formaldehyde basically means that you've got a sort of and let's do the Egyptian thing again, a Rosetta stone for some of the some of the other molecules that could form from formaldehyde reacting with different other different chemicals to form carbon rich molecules, the sorts of things that we think of associated with life, like amino acids and things of that sort. So this this research again, it's it's sort of, I suppose, leaning towards the optimistic side regarding life on Mars. One of there is searchers. There's a lovely quote here and I'm reading from Cyitech Daily. In this particular story, the researcher says, our research provides crucial insights into the chemical processes that may have occurred on ancient Mars, offering valuable clues to the possibility of past life on the planet. This is Shunga Kayama, and that's the lead author of the study. And so it's basically, you know, it's broadening their research, broadening the level of possibilities that we have for the formation of what we would call biomolecules, you know, the molecules that basically go into living organisms. Now we're finding those all over the place. We find the modern comets and even asteroids. But to find a reaction that can actually generate these chemicals on the surface of ancient Mars is I think a step forward. It's a very interesting piece of research, and once again it provides some optimism for people who are looking for perhaps in the end, when we get the samples back from from Perseverance, we might be looking for evidence of past living organisms fossilized perhaps in the dust and soil of Mars. Yes, that's the sixty four thousand dollars question, isn't it. And this just seems to add a little bit more fuel to the fire. Yes, that's right, it does indeed, which is Yeah, it's an interesting step and a nice piece of research, and look tevist, but I admire people who can work out what these reactions are and tell you what comes out at the end. Yeah, I suppose we should add a kad it and say they're basing this on a few assumptions. Yes, sometimes you have to do so. It's not an absolute, but the assumptions are fairly sound. Yes, and that is the existing conditions on Mars at the time. But yeah, we know in its history it probably had liquid oceans, it was warmer, and now this could add another little piece to the life puzzle we'll be expounding, and hopefully in the not too distant future we will have answers. Yeah, all about the answers, or the nearest thing we'll get to answers will be when these samples come back from Perseverance, which I think it's laid a cash of something like is it happened in samples of Mars. I know that the planning for the recovery mission for these is in trouble in terms of finances and things. This is meant to be a joint DES NASA mission. I think it was originally scheduled for twenty twenty eight. I think there's issues with that haven't followed up on them, but it looks as though people are raising questions above it, so we'll we'll have to see how that goes. It is a very important mission, of course, to bring back for the first time sometimes of Martian Martian soil. Yeah, I still kind of shake my head about the fact that they created such a fabulous mission to collect the samples, but you know, they put the collection idea on the back burner, and it's still on the back burner, so I hope it won't stay there for very long. Yeah. Well, you know, those things have been up there for billions of years. It's they're not going to go away. No, that's right. I think you know, we'll get around to it eventually. That's what people do, That's what I do. Yeah, yeah, I'll get I'll get to those weeds in the garden. Yeah. Yeah, there's a few things like that. Actually, all right, if you would like to read up on that story, as Fred suggested, the SI Tech Daily dot com website is a great place to start. This is Space Nuts. Andrew Dunkley here with Professor Fred. What's an Let's take a short break from the show to tell you about our sponsor, Nord VPN. Now, a virtual private network is a great way to protect yourself when you're online, particularly if you're using public Wi Fi. I've told you that many times, but with NORD there are so many other benefits. You're not just getting a virtual private network. You can get all sorts of other add ons that are very beneficial. Of course, protecting your passwords is all important, and remembering them is a bit of a challenge. 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You get an extra four months for free, you get thirty day money back guarantee, and the more you sort of buy over the longer period, the cheaper it gets. You can get everything, or you can get bits and pieces of what you need. Just check it out for yourself. Look, it's a fabulous product, very handy, works on just about every device available to humankind these days. But a really great product and nord VP and the best in the business. Check it out today nord vpn dot com slash space nuts. Now back to the show, Nuts. You are indeed with us, and we're grateful for that, so thank you. Now it's time to look at things beyond our solar system, and a lot of the time they are exoplanets, and we have now discovered the smallest exoplanet ever found. Fred. This thing's yeah, I suppose it's really tiny, but it's opened up that debate on Okay, is it a planet or is it something else? Yeah, that's right, that's why it's in the news. It's just the you know, the the question about whether this object, which actually has been known for about ten years, I think, whether it is a planet. So what do we talk about. We're talking about an object called Kepler thirty seven B and it's an object that was discovered by the Kepler mission, and we should just recap on that. It's now Kepler is now not operating anymore. But that mission, which was incredibly successful, was to measure the brightness of stars very very accurately and measure them over time. I think they did it one hundred thousand stars at once, I remember, rightly, and to look at the way the light from those stars varies, and to detect when objects pass in front of those stars. So that means you have to have a planetary system around the star that's actually aligned with the direction back to Earth. And there's quite good statistics on how many you might expect to find like that, but indeed it was so it was so many that many thousands, I think it was three or four thousand planets were detected by Kepler. As they passed in front of their parents, star caused a dip. Next time round they passed in front of their parents, star caused another dip. And I think if you get the third one, that's when it is classified as a planet rather than being a suspective planet. So Kepler was really successful at this, and the reason why it sort of revolutionized the planet finding process was before that. Before Kepler, the main way of finding planets was the Doppler up wobble method, where you're looking for wobbles in the motion of the star backwards and forwards towards and away from you that have been a bit caused by a planet pulling the star slightly out of place. Now, that's a great way of finding big planets, but for little ones it's pretty grim because the pull of a little planet is not very great on its parent star. Whereas the Kepler method, what's called the transit method, because the planet transits across the disc of the star, that is very sensitive to actually quite small planets. And just to spill the beans on how big we think it is, Kepler thirty seven B is actually about the same size as the Moon, which is a quarture of the ASTHEYMITI now, so that's the record breaker at the moment. But the question I guess that was raised was is it really a planet? Yeah? Is it? You know? Is it? Is it an asteroid or something that's not spherical? And that is something that we Earthlings have defined through the Astronomical Union, and it has to meet certain criteria to be defined a planet, which Pluto couldn't do anymore. And that's why it was redesignated in two thousand and six. That's correct only if I remember only the twenty third divorced. That was the date I think of the vote, which was still controversial honestly, But my view, as you well know, is that it was the right decision. So the criteria and that this is the nub of this story. It's got to orbit a start or the Sun in the case of the Solar System, it has to be big enough that this process called differentiation has pulled it into a spherical shape. In other words, its own gravity has overcome the resistance of the rock, which is probably molten back in the day when it was being formed. Its own gravity has overcome that resistance and pulled it into a sphere. But the third criterion, and this is the one that Pluto fails on, is that it's got to be the dominant object in its neighborhood. It's got to have gravitationally cleared other objects out of the way, and if it hasn't done, then it is a dwarf planet, which is why that new categorization was introduced. Something that's very coal but hasn't become the dominant object, it's a dwarf planet. And indeed Pluto isn't the dominant object. Other things that are equal in size to Blueto are probably things that are bigger that we haven't found yet out there in the depth of the Solar System. So that's the question in relation to Kepler thirty seven B is it has it cleared its own area of the region around its parents star, which is called Kepler thirty seven And the answer is it's really hard to know that because the stuff that will be around it will be very small. But I think that basically the upshot of the research that is being described here. It's a scientist and I can't remember. I think it's Thomas Barclay is the name, but I can't remember. Yes, got our space Flight Center. Yes, its Barkley got our Space Light Center, and in fact he Thomas was the first author of the paper eleven years ago that actually identified that planet as being a planet, Kepler thirty seven B. I think what has happened now is to look in more detail at the star itself, because we can learn things about stars from a topic that we don't often talk about Andrew, even though it's actually well pursued here in Australia. There's a very strong group at Sydney University that look at this topic. It's called astero seismology and it's about vibrations in stars. You can even apply this to the Sun. The Sun's got I think they're about every five minutes the Sun wobble slightly. Ye, it's a natural oscillation and you can see those in the brightness of the star. And I think they've made just by looking at the basically that these oscillations, what they've done is got a better estimate of the diameter the mass of Kepler thirty seven B. And essentially it is what we said about the size of the Moon, and that's really the remaining place where we are at the moment. It's definitely that size that the likelihood is its spherical because on objects in the size of the Moon, what is it two and a half thousand kilometers or thereabout, it's actually a bit more than that. It's getting up for three. Yes, it's over three thousand, sorry, three thousand, two hundred or something like that. That size it will have, it will have become a sphere, it will have become verhical. The gravity is enough to pull it into that spherical shape. So then really really remain in question as to whether the thirty seven B qualifies as a planet is whether it's clear the region around it, And the suspicion is because it's so close to its parents are it's very tense, thirteen days to go around once. The likelihood is that that stuff is long gone, and so I think are still old. In Kepler thirty seven B up on a pedestal as the smallest planet known outside the Solar System, and in fact it is the smallest planet because it's actually smaller than Mercury. But we are looking forward to the launch in three years time of the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope, which is a kind of hubble like telescope that's going to do all sorts of interesting things, because it's got a wide field of view, and that will be detecting exoplanets by a different a different method, not the transit method, but one that has actually found favor from astronomers on Earth, not just in space. It's called gravitational microlensing. And what happens is if a planet passes in front of the light of a star, its gravity changes the brightness of that star because this lensing process basically focuses the light its Gravitational lensing is the phenomenon where space is distorted by a galaxy or a planet or something like the Earth. Space is distorted by that, and what you get is a lens in space, effectively a lens, and that can magnify the light of a distant star. Gravitational micro lensing has been very successful in finding new exoplanets, not as successful as the transit method. But if you've got a big telescope looking out for these things, you might discover thousands of exoplanets by this technique. And the Nunti Grace Roman space telescope I remember rightly, it's about the same size as Soubble is, you know, on the trail of this. So in a few years time, we might find another huge troll of gravitationally micro lensed planets, and maybe we will find one smaller than caple of thirty seven B. In fact, I think they are anticipating that to probability, because this method they believe is going to catch quite a big cluster of planets in the in this well, you know where are they going to look? Exactly anywhere they can? Yeah, it's a it's a really sensitive technique if for small planets. I might just add that colleagues in New Zealand are actually particularly involved with this. With this technique, there are various projects, all with quite entertaining names. I've tried to remember one of them what it is, micro fun. That's it. Micro fun holifies them, which I like another. So colleagues in this part of the world are very active in that in that process, including some amateurs traunulers as well. Okay, if you would like to read about the discovery of well, not discovery of but the confirmation that thirty seven B Keppler thirty seven B is the smallest exoplanet thus found, you can do that at space dot com. Fred. We are done for another day, and I just remind people that you can go to our website, have a bit of a peruse and get in touch with in touch with us there, and don't forget. If you're a YouTube follower and you watch us on YouTube, don't forget to hit that subscribe button down below. Where is it again, Andrew? Where's that subscribe button down? Fred? Thanks so much. We're done for another day. Sounds good and I look forward to the next time, Andrew. Indeed, Professor Fret Watson, astronomer at large part of the team here at Space Nuts the podcast, and thanks to you in the studio, he's been basically sitting on his hands for the last few weeks because he's had nothing to do. That's different how I'm not sure anyway from me Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your company. Catch you on the very next episode of Space Nuts. Bye bye. You'll be listening to the Space Nuts podcast available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player. You can also stream on demand at bites dot com. This has been another quality podcast production from nights dot com.